When Popes Speak And Presidents Post

Pope Comments And War Ethics

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome back to PastorPlex Podcast. We talk faith, culture, and everything in between. And joining me today is none other than Pastor Holland. Hello. And we're talking about world events, crazy things have been happening. Uh latest post from the Pope. I don't know if you noticed that lately, that he kind of said that pretty much uh all of Abrahamic uh faiths are essentially equal. I think you sent me something on that this week.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yeah, he uh it was on the 13th, so a couple days ago, posted that he was in Algeria and was celebrating communion between Christians and Muslims. What does that even mean? I mean, I like for Catholics, you know, to not have communion with Protestants, but to have communion with Muslims is just a wild position to have to me. And it's not anything new. This is like Vatican II, you know, says stuff like this. Um uh that you know Muslims are kind of like seeking after the same God.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

To be fair, Vatican II also said I think Protestants might be going to heaven as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, so there's like it's hard to know, you know, and is the Pope speaking, you know, ex cathedra here, or is this just like a comment that you don't have to the whole thing's weird to me. The Pope said a lot of weird stuff. He also said recently that you know God doesn't is it that he doesn't hear the prayers of those who go to war? Yeah, of those who declare war. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

And I was like, man, that's that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Somebody tell King David because he did not know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

And Romans 13, I think you know, the the king doesn't bear the sword for nothing. I think that is part of uh a nation's duty to protect its citizens. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Iran War And Trusting God

SPEAKER_00 1:41

So I think that granted, like we don't we're not like, yay, go to war for fun, but at some point you go, that is like the role of Yeah, just war theory acknowledges that war is tragic and not the obviously not what you want, but is necessary to protect innocent life. Yeah, and defeat evil at times. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

All right. So that was that I feel like that's been the news. Uh people have been asking me like my thoughts on the Iran war. They're like, what do you think? What do you think? You know, should we a bomb? Should we not a bomb? And I and I've said this, and I know this is probably gonna be controversial. I've said this pretty consistently uh from my time in the military to present day when there was a when Barack Obama was president, uh when Donald Trump was president the first time, when Joe Biden was president, uh specifically with the Afghanistan um um when we when we when we left Afghanistan. Uh and and now it's like I don't know what the president knows. Yeah, right. And and so like, would do I fault Joe Biden for the Afghanistan debacle? I mean, it was a debacle, but he may have had generals briefing him, he may have had like an inside understanding, and I I just hesitate to really destroy American uh sovereignty, to let I don't think that's true. And so I I just have a hard time like getting into like how do you know that a president and the generals and the the chief of staff are looking out for the best? You've got to trust God ultimately that the people that are in charge when it comes to declaring war and when in uh going in and out, uh all those different aspects. I I I just real hesitant uh to give a uh um an opinion when I am such a finite person who is in Austin, Texas, who doesn't have a clue what President Trump or at the time President Biden or any of those guys were doing when he came in foreign policy. I've just got to trust the Lord with all that.

Paula White And Trump Comparisons

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, trust the Lord. I uh you don't always I mean you want to be able to trust your leaders as well. But sometimes you go, man, I can't in good conscience say that I fully trust this or that. But what you can do is what you say, admit that you don't know what you don't know. And um, what you can do is pray for your leaders. And that's that's like my big encouragement is you get a lot more done for the good of the world and the good of the nation uh by praying over just kind of spouting off your complaints and disagreements that may be just ill-founded because you don't know what you don't know. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

And that takes us to the the next thing that I thought was just sort of wild recently was the uh there's two things. One, I think it was Apollo White talking about how Trump was just like Jesus and he was betrayed like Jesus, and then he, I guess his career died like Jesus, and then he rose from the dead. It was a weird thing to say, and uh, that was like I this is where I wish that I think Trump has lots of people praying for him, and I think that is good. Uh, having your spiritual advisor be Paula White, I'm not really sure if that's the best way to go, but it that to me was just an odd thing uh for him to say. Uh I don't know if you you caught that comment.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, yeah. She said that um Trump's life has followed a familiar pattern that our Lord and Savior showed us. Um, I think referring to the assassination attempt, legal cases against him. Uh, she said, no one has paid the price like you have paid the price. It almost cost you your life. You were betrayed and arrested and falsely accused. A familiar pattern that our Lord and Savior showed us. But it didn't end there for him, and it didn't end there for you. Um so, okay, on the one hand, yeah. On the one hand, if you can go all of us are supposed to follow a pattern of taking up our cross, following Jesus. Those who are in Christ will face um persecution from the world, and ultimately our hope is in that, you know, persecution doesn't have the last word, but our resurrection in Christ. I think what's really weird about it is Trump doesn't seem to be a Christian. Right. Like he's he's openly said, like, I don't know how one gets to heaven.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

I hope I get to heaven.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, or or he's like, if I do, it's because like I've helped so many people, like a workspace type thing, like doesn't seem to understand the gospel. Um, and you know, for a spiritual advisor to be so intent on comparing him to Jesus rather than trying to point him to Jesus Christ. Right. Um, like that would be my priority is like obviously you want to honor the president.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah, that's and I think that that on obviously she went over the top in honoring him. Yeah, yeah. I I think that's where I'm like, uh but Robert Jeffers is there, and he's not a prosperity gospel guy, but he's been a Trump guy from even before Trump was like even elected the first time. And like I wonder if he is like able to speak truth to him, if there is a hate, like you are going to hell unless you repent and trust that Jesus died on the cross, and there's nothing that you can do to achieve salvation, to to become one with with Jesus, other than accepting what Christ has done for you. And I think that's the part that I I feel like is I don't know if if they're if they're saying that in private, calling him to repent, calling to trust Jesus, but that would be my hope for him in those meetings or in the the spiritual advising type topic.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yeah, he needs a new spiritual advisor. Yeah. Um Paul Paula White, like charismatic, crazy kind of um prosperity, uh a woman pastor, woman preacher, um, and is pointing, you know, saying things that are very, I, in my opinion, very spiritually unhelpful. Again, I would have to admit, I don't know what else is being said that we don't know. Yeah, we don't know. Maybe there's some really good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

And and she was kind of saying, like, hey, part of the Christian life is suffering, and President Trump, you have suffered. Christ suffered. It was Easter, but it was just a weird timing.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I I get the desire to honor the president. I I get the desire to to like encourage following the pattern of Christ's life. Yep. But to me, I just go, man, like he needs people preaching the gospel to him. And really, just like, I'm all about like I think I think the government um uh uh being able to really publicly preach the gospel. Um, and obviously you're not coercing any any thing on anyone.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Put out some great statements. I think there's the the thing that I do give the White House credit for, there have been some great statements coming out from the White House about how our Lord Jesus died on Good Friday and he rose from the dead. I like to me, I'm like, wow. Yeah. It is such a stark contrast from uh the Biden era of like, let's celebrate gay pride month on or gay Easter bunny.

Pastors As Prophetic Voices

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yeah, it was it's just so different. But yeah, at the same time, it's like, okay, you want to see the um like you want to see the the leaders actually embody that and with genuine Christian faith.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Um what do you think, just as pastors, like what is our responsibility to be a prophetic voice in the culture today, with when stuff like that like when someone claims Christ or is I mean, like like we're seeing. I mean, what do you think our responsibility is uh in the culture?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah, speak speak truth, preach truth, um, expose errors and correct them. You know, I I think I don't think you need to comment on every single thing that happened. Like that would be a full-time job. You know, and that's that is not the full-time job of a pastor is to comment on every single cultural thing all the time. But you you do have to choose your battles and comment on on some.

AI Jesus Meme And Blasphemy

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, because I I do feel like there's I because you have to disciple your people. Right. You if you say nothing, uh, then all of a sudden you the world's discipling because the the amount of social media that's out there is impressing on people's hearts. The amount of social media that's out there is saying, like, hey, you need to be guided and and you need to think this way. And so when we say zero, the well, we've just let the world disciple. Yeah. Um at the same time, to your point, I'd rather be pastoring people, loving people, uh kind of shepherding them toward the gospel. Which then the the next thing that I want to talk about, just because I I think it's it's been I've I've seen this meme come out like a billion times. I didn't see the original post, but I saw so many people reposting it that my feed was it was kind of like when Charlie Kirk died. My entire feed was Charlie Kirk. And then since uh this latest meme where Trump posted uh an AI generated picture, I think somebody else made, and then he just reposted it. But it was a it looked like him with like uh the red shawl, uh looks kind of like a Jesus type figure, and he's putting his hand on some dude and uh calling for healing. And it it was like this weird moment, and I think everybody had the same response to it. Did po did Trump just post himself as Jesus uh healing a person? And uh I think probably the original AI generate dude is like calling out the Red Cross and calling out like Trump's a better red, but still, no matter what, it just looks so weird. It looks so much like all the now, grant we have no actual pictures of Jesus, but it looks like a what a lot of what Jesus would, you know, a lot of people have um put promoted him as looking like this sort of outfit, uh, with as a or as a pastor, and he's putting his hand on his head to heal him, uh the patient. And so that was sort of a an odd thing. Um, and I think which was really great of Trump, he took it down, but man, the damage was sort of done that he would put anything out there like that in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah. And like so again, I'm like, I don't know everything, I don't know the story behind it. You know, I think he made a public remark of like, I thought it was me as a doctor or something, which maybe maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Again, like I don't know that he's a Christian. I don't know that he it doesn't seem to be uh I think the deeper issue of like how how people are responding to stuff like that, um it's interesting. There like uh people who there are people who are saying this is black, you know, it's blasphemous, right? Right. Well, like those who would say, like, hey, we should have a Christian nation and like blasphemy should be like illegal, right? Right. Um people are going, hey, don't put your religious laws on me. Well, when a post like that comes up, all of a sudden they're like, blasphemy's bad because you know, it's a way to just hit your opponent. Yeah, and and but it so it brings up deeper things of like, okay, what um I I think what it exposes a lot of people have not been taught what the word actually says about blasphemy, about second commandment, um, about um government and the role, you know, the duty that kings or rulers have to honor Christ. You have exactly what was that? Psalm two. Psalm two is a great psalm that speaks of the duty of all kings, kings, rulers of the earth, it says in Psalms 2, um, that you are to serve the Lord with fear um and rejoice with trembling, kiss the sun, it says, meaning honor God's chosen Messiah. Um, every human authority has a duty to honor God because that's where their authority comes from. That's what Romans 13 chooses. Right. So it's not just like the kings of Israel. This is every human ruler that that's the president, that's an emperor, that's a king. They have a responsibility to God whether they know it or not. And those who dishonor God from their station of authority, you have stories of that in the Bible, like Nebuchadnezzar, right? Yep. King Herod. Um Belshazzar, who who died, the writing on the wall that he dies that night. Um, and so there's this real, this reality that if you are in a position of th authority, you received that from God, whether you know it or not. And if you don't honor him with your authority, you should expect God's judgment on you and your nation. That should lead all of us as part of this nation to pray for our leaders that they would know Christ and honor him.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, and that's one of the things that we try to do as a church on the regular is we pray for Trump and all like kind of on down to the to the mayor of Austin, Kirk Watson, to the president of the Wells Branch Bud Board, uh, Betsy Harper. You're like, we're kind of like praying for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Even stuff like I saw when I saw that post, I just stopped and I prayed, Lord, please lead him to delete that post. Whatever he meant by that. Yeah, hey, pray. Like that is that repentance. Who knows? Um, but just imagine, you know, like I think that with some of the Trump has done some good things, I think some um some very good things. Uh, I think an area that I would go, man, I would love to see repentance and growth in for him is dignified speech. Right. Um, and no obscene talk. Yeah, we yeah, man. And uh my Bible's open to that verse right now. And so like what I'm like, I don't just want that, I want it to come from a heart of faith. Like, so I pray for his repentance, his salvation, and that that salvation would produce um a way of speaking that is becoming of a powerful ruler who wants to honor God with the station that has been entrusted.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I agree. I think that's where you know sometimes I just sit there and I just want to like you you do so much good, and then you you kind of like take away a lot of the good that you've done by saying just irresponsible things.

Threats War Theory And Bluffing

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Uh at the same time, I go, what there's those on the other side advocating strongly for the right to repro you know, reproductive freedom to murder your children. And though and I'm like That is awful when it you're comparing obscene speech with the right to murder your children, right to do that. Yes, both are sinful and wrong, but one of them's one is more devastating, they might be equally damning. Yeah, and so I I I can still go, man, I'm I'm thankful for these things, and yet I pray for his salvation. I pray for the fruit of salvation in XYZ ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Um what about when uh Trump's post about ending the civilization? What what was your thought on that?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Again, this is where I go, who knows what was going on in his mind? And you know, is or is that um speech becoming of a leader to speak, you know, that goes against just just war theory. Yeah. Um killing innocent civilians intentionally. Um that's that's like against the rules, right? Um, and and you go, okay, well, what if he never intended to do it and he was just trying to um yeah, like like scare him? Yeah, you King Solomon in um with the the two women who, you know, it's like, how do I know who's the real mother of the baby? He goes, Bring, yeah, bring me my sword. I'll just cut it in half. You each take uh half of the baby home and we'll call it a night. And was he really going to do that? Probably not. Right. But did him bluffing that uh produce uh a result that made him go, okay, you're the real mother. Right. So that was, and that's like viewed as the first example of his wisdom and his wise rule in Israel, which you're like, whoa, that's crazy. Bluffing to cut a baby in half with a sword was how you know, it was the first act of wisdom of King Solomon. That that's wild to me, but I go, maybe, maybe that kind of speech has has its place.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

So one of the things I've just noticed is like Trump is unpredictable. And I think that goes to his advantage. It gives you a tactical advantage in what man, it's as a person sort of following that, uh, as like as like let's say you're an Iranian Christian and that gets posted, right? Right. You might freak out a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Um, and then, but oh, he was bluffing. Uh I again I don't this is where you know, as as as a person in the Oval Office trying to make these tactical decisions, you're never intending to, but they think you will because you're, you know, you're perceived as crazy. And so that part of it is like, man, what a what a tough position to be in.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

How do you get how did you get I how do you get Iran to the table with saying 8 p.m. or you know, 8 p.m. Eastern your civilization ends or whatever. That's a wild thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

And it's a thought that most of us will never have to deal with ever because we're never going to be put in charge of going to war with another country. Um, but and so it's hard to even imagine what the right thing to do is in those situations where again, I go, I go to I go like whatever side you land on, he should have or he shouldn't have done that. I go, are you praying for the president of the United States? Are you praying for the ruler of Iran, the ruler of Israel? Like, are you praying for these people to come to know Christ and that um yeah, that he would, he would, that God's will would be done in these things?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

The last one I want to kind of jump on was JD Vance, like kind of got in a little tiff with the Pope, I think, over like the social media. Uh I didn't even see that. Oh, essentially the Pope is so much sexual. So violent. So the Pope is like, so Vance is Catholic. Yeah. And so the Pope is like, hey, you know, anyone who declares war or whatever, that and then uh JD Vance goes, the Pope should stick to morality and let us focus on politics. And I'm kind of like, this is where it's like you can't help. I like I I don't mind the Pope speaking into it because in that what the Christians are politics are based on morality, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:56

And and war is within the realm, it is within the realm of politics, it is also within the realm of theology, though. Right. So, um, and and morality is connected to both of those. Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

So I I that's where I'm like, I I appreciate that JD Vance it gets to be a weird thing as hey, that's the head of your church, and you're the vice president of a nation that is engaging in global conflict, which the Pope doesn't approve of, that you are now a head, what a wild spot to be in. Yeah. And he's already criticized the Pope on ordered loves, right? Remember, that might have been Pope. Orto amoris. Yeah, the order of love. Like, so talk about that real quick of what that was. Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, well, the the concept of orto amoris, the Latin phrase is just that we have ordered relationship, ordered our loves are ordered in the sense that um you you have limitations based on time and space and geography. You can't love everyone the same way. And so you you have um certain responsibilities to some that you don't have to others, or some that you have before you have for others. And um, so I'm I'm required to love my children in a way that I'm not required to love all the children of the world. Right. And um, so if you know, and and if I were to neglect my children, if to neglect feeding my children to feed other children, that's weird. I've failed. I haven't loved well. Um and so he brought that up in terms of I think immigration policy or something. If we have a duty first to the people, the citizens of this country, before we have a duty to all the countries of the world. Um yeah. And he's not saying we don't love other people around the world, he's saying we have a duty first to this.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

But the Pope, I think, before was saying you have a duty to love everyone the same. Well, I think that would be a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Because if you don't take you just call the Pope insane, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I said no sane person would say that.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

I'm just saying, like, yeah, it's like a normal of course you're gonna take care of your own child before you take care of other people's children. Yeah. Um, however, I think this is where the Pope is saying, like, um, love, you know, just as I've loved you, so you should also love one another. To which, but still, like, this is where Paul says uh he who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than an unbeliever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Right. Again, ordered love, particular duties related to, you know, your your station, your family, all that.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah.

Ordered Loves And Praying For Rome

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Anyway. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm just like, I pray for the Pope too. I pray for the Pope to um uh uh become Protestant, to uh abandon, you know, the erroneous Catholic teachings.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Can I just give him some credit? I think we've talked about this before. Yeah, credit where that Mary is not co-edemtrics. Yeah. That was a big deal. Yeah. Uh I was really excited about that.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Um not so excited about his recent Muslim statements, but yeah, the stuff on Muslims, the stuff on God doesn't hear the prayers of those who you know go to war. I'm just like, man, what how how do you reconcile that with scripture and church history? And um it but it's really hard, but I it doesn't mean I like hate Catholicism. Catholics, I'm like, I hope for repentance and change. And I the same like when I when I hear or see Trump say or do things that I'm like, ah, I would love if that wasn't done. Right. I pray for him though. And so uh you just I'm gonna keep saying over and over, pray for the Pope, pray for Trump, pray for J.D. Vance. Um I mean because pray for his wife to become a Christian, she's still Hindu, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Um and I love whenever Charlie Kirk died, J.D. Vance said, I have talked more about my faith in public than I've ever done in my entire life. And I was like, way to go, uh J.D. Vance. And he keeps sounding more Protestant and more Protestant over time.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah, and I I think like the result of all this is like I I think the evangelical kind of um body of believers in the West has has just really been malnourished and um is emaciated in terms of understanding what the Bible teaches about government, about nations, about rulers, um politics. Like the Bible talks a lot. I mean, Proverbs is pretty much a book for how to rule well. Yeah. You know, it's it was written for a the son of a king to be a good ruler. So much in there about politics and government and rulership and all that. And we have not taught that. I say we like, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Like you personally haven't taught that enough, Holland.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah. I try I try to say, like, hey, we need to learn the whole council of God because when we don't know this stuff, it it just leads to so much chaos and confusion. But I think if we if pastors were to seriously teach what the word says about this, not having to chime in on every political everything, right, but teach what the word says about it, then we might produce more Christian magistrates from our churches, Christian rulers, civil leaders who can step into offices of authority and rule well in a Christian way, right, with dignified speech, with godly, wise decision making, with um like how how do people not see how that would bless the nation so much?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Um I so I think there is because I think whenever we're training up our children, we're like, hey, go make money and and get yourself at a and I think that's great, go get an education, get a great job, go do great things. And the aspiration is usually in terms of capitalistic success, which I'm not thumbs down on, but man, what if we kind of had a heart of go get engaged in politics, go get engaged to have God? No, seriously. Yeah.

Christian Rulers Culture And The Great Commission

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I mean, how many I've heard so many sermons challenging people to go be missionaries, praise the Lord, um, or to go into ministry as a pastor or church planner, praise the Lord. How many sermons have you heard that have, you know, called, hey, maybe God is calling you to be a civil leader, to be a governor or to be a vice president or a supreme court justice, to get on that pathway. Obviously, you know, there's a lot that has to happen on that, but like giving people a vision for that to say we need righteous rulers in this country who are gonna lead according to God's word, not coerce, you know, anyone in terms of faith, but to be to Psalm two, rule in the fear of God for the good of the people. Yeah. Holland, it might be time. We need it. Is this Holland's? Are you this your hey? I've got three sons so far. You've got four sons. We could, I mean, in 20 years, we could have Hey, four magistrates, seven magistrates.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Um, okay, I love it. Um, yeah, what and I think this could what is so I love that like Christians are called to be involved.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Like you're Jeremy Calvin called the magistrate the highest office on earth. That's what he's higher than pastor, higher than missionary. John Calvin. Man, I thought I had that. Institutes was written to magistrates, yeah, you know convention or Geneva Convention.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Geneva, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It was written to rulers, you know, like so many uh just we went, you know, in the church, Justin Martyr, he was writing to the emperor. Christians have there's a tradition from the first century on, including the apostle Paul wanting to see Caesar and speaking to Felix and uh Agrippa, wanting to convert kings, because if you can convert the king and and the king would would see Christianity positively, how much more progress can you make with church planting and ministry and righteous laws that are going to defend the innocent anyway?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Um I think that's good. What happened though? Constantine did change the empire, right? Yeah. And Christianity f flourished, but then it became intertwined into politics in a dark way in some ways. How do you prevent that from happening?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yeah, um, I I think that's good to bring up like uh cult Christian culture has its um weaknesses and problems, but you go, well, everything you do is gonna have weaknesses and problems. Christian culture is not a bad thing, Christian culture is is a blessing. Um, but you have to be aware of the weaknesses and be on guard against them too.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

The most successful countries in the world uh would be the most Christian. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 26:59

I don't know if I don't want to I would if if you're if if you're just going, okay, let's just what does the Bible actually say? The Bible like explicitly teaches that concept in um saying that like those who fear God understand wisdom and justice, and those who don't do not, you know, don't those who don't fear God, there's you know, word for word in the proverbs, um those who don't fear God, you know, do not understand justice at all. That's in Proverbs. Right. And so you go, how can you have a just society ruled by people who don't fear God?

SPEAKER_01 27:32

All right, so go ahead. Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say I the one country that I know that like has like G Jesus' king or whatever uh is Poland, right? Poland there's like 13. Okay. Well, Poland was one of them. And I was just like, I just asked, you know, ChatGPT, uh, how is Poland doing? Poland's economy is generally considered one of the most successful in Europe over the past several decades. Yeah, especially among former communist countries.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Uh, and that I just I just thought that was interesting that I was just like the one country that I knew that kind of had like a declaration that we are Christian, uh, bam, that they're doing great.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah, and you know, it's one you you obviously you have to back it up. You can't just write it down, but but um but writing it down is part of, you know, when it comes to the Great Commission. That's the Christian culture. Yeah, you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

So I don't know if they're Christian, I just know they have a Christian culture.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yes, and you know, the culture essentially, whatever standards you make, your laws, your values, that is what forms the culture. Culture is formed after the rules, the laws, the values, and and ultimately. All legislation comes from morality, right? Yes, and and that comes from who you worship, right? And so culture comes from like cult, cultic, religious uh worship. Your culture comes from who you worship and the values that come from who you worship. And so to the idea, like, there's so many people today who are like, we should not try to have a Christian nation. There's no such thing as a Christian nation. It's it's like you uh think logically. If you go and you make disciples somewhere, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

What happens if you disciple everybody?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

What happens if you actually disciple that nation thoroughly, including its leaders who are responsible for its laws? Obviously, you're going to have unjust laws done away with, righteous laws put into place, and those leaders are gonna want to honor Christ because the Bible commands them to.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

And I'm just you're you're you're a post-mill guy, right? Post-millennial. Yeah. And I'm a pre uh pre-mill dispensational.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yes. And I even so like m most uh post-mill guys are like you. They're like, we gotta do our part to bring Christ back on the kingdom, not that or Christ to return.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Well, we gotta do our part to make disciples of all nations.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Right. And and I think I would say the same thing. Like, even if I feel like at one point it's gonna get worse and worse and worse, that um we're gonna get raptured out of here, praise the Lord, and then we're gonna come back and join Jesus in the millennial kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, the basic difference is you don't think we'll do it. I do think we'll do it.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah, that's right. But I still think we should try. Yeah. I still think that I should we should give effort to reaching lost people, even in government positions, and when they get saved, they would lead, they're gonna be in the remain in the station that which they were called, and then have laws that are just based upon their faith.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Exactly. Even if you think so, not only the Great Commission make disciples of all nations, which I think the the end, the telos of that is a thoroughly discipled nation, a Christian nation, the whole, not just America, the whole world, all the nations of the world. But think of also the great commandment to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. What is more loving to your neighbor? Just laws or unjust laws. I love your I love your uh thinking there. Yeah. What is the more loving thing to your neighbor? Um, wicked rulers or righteous rulers who love Jesus? Obviously, the more loving thing is righteous rulers and just laws who serve in the fear of God and seek to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. That's loving your neighbor in the political sphere.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Right. And I think what's happened, I think have there, I think people in the name of Jesus have done some wicked stuff and that's put a put a bad taste in people's mouth. Yes. Uh, and so it doesn't help when there's a meme of Trump looking like Jesus. And you're just like, okay, I don't want that. Whatever that is, I don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

However, that doesn't mean this is where the Christian nationalists and the anti-Christian nationalists shake hands and go, nobody wants blaspheming Christ, if that's what that was, right? And who knows what it really was, but nobody wants that. Christian nationalists don't want blaspheming Christ. Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

And and I think that's where you go, oh, okay, well, we're all on the same page on that. What we want is just law. What we want is righteous people leading our country to do to live for Christ. That's what we want. Yes. Uh to live peaceful and dignified lives. Yeah. Yeah. Just a lot there.

Listener Text Line And Closing

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah. I I could go for hours more, but we I mean, should we wrap this thing up?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

I think we we probably should wrap it up. Hey, listen, if you got any questions, you can text at 737 231 0605. We'd love to hear from you. We talk faith, culture, and everything in between. Uh, but uh from our house to yours, have an awesome week of worship.