Aug. 28, 2025

Nephilim, Demons, and Divine Councils: Exploring the Unseen Realm

Nephilim, Demons, and Divine Councils: Exploring the Unseen Realm
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 4

Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here.

What if everything you thought you knew about angels, demons, and the spiritual realm was just scratching the surface? This episode dives deep into Michael Heiser's groundbreaking book "The Unseen Realm" and explores how it transforms our understanding of the Bible's supernatural worldview.

Ready to join the conversation? Send your questions to 737-231-0605!

Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.

Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving


Support the show

00:00 - Introduction to The Unseen Realm

06:40 - Grant's Christian Journey

14:18 - Diving into Psalm 82's Divine Council

22:36 - Genesis 6: Sons of God and Nephilim

38:43 - Begotten Son vs. One-of-a-Kind

44:41 - God's Imagers and Human Free Will

55:08 - Demons, Nations, and Spiritual Warfare

01:11:47 - Final Thoughts and Conclusion

WEBVTT

00:00:05.307 --> 00:00:07.471
And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast.

00:00:07.471 --> 00:00:15.391
I'm your host, pastor Plek, and sitting alongside me in studio today, none other than Pastor Holland Gregg Howdy.

00:00:15.391 --> 00:00:21.667
You know, you are now the student pastor of Wells Branch Community Church, as well as the lead pastor of Eastside Community Church.

00:00:21.667 --> 00:00:22.881
How do you do it, you?

00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:25.248
know I eat my Wheaties every day.

00:00:25.248 --> 00:00:25.882
That kind of thing.

00:00:25.882 --> 00:00:31.992
That's great, and you know you're looking very strong over there, by the way, wow, hey, you know I have a great workout partner at Lifetime Fitness.

00:00:32.012 --> 00:00:35.984
Very huge You're like large and in charge Arms are bursting out of your shirt.

00:00:35.984 --> 00:00:40.390
Bursting, all right, also in studio with us is none other than Grant Miller.

00:00:40.390 --> 00:00:51.804
Hello, grant, let's talk real quick about and you have to be really close to your microphone or else and you can raise it up if you need it to be like, cause you're kind of tall, uh, have it like right here.

00:00:51.804 --> 00:01:00.847
Anyway, I want you to talk to us about how long you've been a Christian, what your journey was like, and then we'll ask you way more questions about things you're into right now.

00:01:02.649 --> 00:01:13.254
Okay, I was raised, grew up a Christian, stepped away from the church, consider myself agnostic around age 15.

00:01:13.254 --> 00:01:24.192
That lasted for almost 15 years until I met my now wife, sarah amazing woman started dating.

00:01:24.192 --> 00:01:36.929
She started bringing me back to church and you know it's a long and hard process but got baptized in August last year, so actually just passed my one-year anniversary.

00:01:36.968 --> 00:01:38.331
Hey, that's awesome, hallelujah.

00:01:38.331 --> 00:01:41.248
Well, it's great to have you back on.

00:01:41.248 --> 00:01:42.959
You've done some couple of cool things.

00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:51.069
One is you had your first like fast experience as a legit follower of Jesus.

00:01:51.069 --> 00:01:54.441
So talk to me about what that was like for you and what did you do.

00:01:55.221 --> 00:01:56.243
Um, yeah, it was really cool.

00:01:56.243 --> 00:02:07.052
Um, so I did a three day fast and I drove down to um Terlingua, texas, which is basically right by Big Bend National Park.

00:02:07.052 --> 00:02:11.131
Really cool, you know, big open desert area.

00:02:11.131 --> 00:02:19.103
I feel like biblical fasting probably happened in or around deserts, so I wanted to kind of capture that.

00:02:19.103 --> 00:02:26.194
You know, more like empty open landscape, further away from people, away from distractions.

00:02:26.194 --> 00:02:28.663
So I went out and did that.

00:02:28.663 --> 00:02:30.306
I think it was early June.

00:02:30.306 --> 00:02:32.311
Really cool experience.

00:02:32.311 --> 00:02:47.943
Just, you know, spent basically all my time reading the Bible, read a couple books One of them was about spiritual discipline Did a lot of praying and, yeah, I don't know, it was a very cool experience and I definitely want to fast again.

00:02:48.485 --> 00:02:48.866
Oh, awesome.

00:02:48.866 --> 00:02:49.870
Wow, that's wild.

00:02:49.870 --> 00:02:50.131
Okay.

00:02:50.131 --> 00:02:51.585
And then one of the books.

00:02:51.585 --> 00:02:53.811
I think I gave you this book back then.

00:02:53.811 --> 00:02:54.656
Right Was that right.

00:02:54.656 --> 00:02:55.400
You recommended it to me.

00:02:56.423 --> 00:03:09.125
Yeah, so I recommended this book to you back then Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and one that I've really, really enjoyed and I wanted us to talk about it especially for you.

00:03:09.125 --> 00:03:10.407
Like, this isn't usually the book you give.

00:03:10.407 --> 00:03:19.753
Like a young sprig Christian here read a academic highly like this is probably what you would get in a.

00:03:19.753 --> 00:03:28.792
You'd read this in getting your master's at seminary, but you read it and enjoyed it, and so I want to get some takeaways, and I'm a big fan.

00:03:28.792 --> 00:03:30.614
Holland's a little skeptical, All right.

00:03:30.614 --> 00:03:38.866
So, Holland, I want you to give your your best pushback on all the ideas here, Cause let's walk, let's walk it through.

00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:41.703
Do you remember what you told me when you said I should read it?

00:03:41.703 --> 00:03:45.769
No, what I said if you read this book, it will change how you read the Bible.

00:03:45.889 --> 00:03:46.870
Oh wow, Is that true?

00:03:46.870 --> 00:03:47.651
Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:47.651 --> 00:03:48.652
Oh wow, Look at that.

00:03:49.493 --> 00:03:49.794
Amazing.

00:03:50.215 --> 00:03:50.776
It was prophetic.

00:03:51.235 --> 00:03:53.362
Yeah, yeah.

00:03:53.362 --> 00:04:01.484
I also want to say I really trust you and I think if anyone else had recommended this, book to me.

00:04:01.503 --> 00:04:05.109
I would really excited to talk about it because I loved it.

00:04:05.109 --> 00:04:08.272
When I read it I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:04:08.272 --> 00:04:10.876
So very mind-blowing yeah yeah, Very mind-blowing.

00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:19.250
So I want to give a little bit of background to the book and kind of the mindset of the author, Michael Heiser, and why he wanted to write this.

00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:21.653
So this is straight from the book.

00:04:21.653 --> 00:04:22.934
I didn't write anything myself.

00:04:22.934 --> 00:04:24.636
This is all notes I took on my Kindle.

00:04:24.636 --> 00:04:37.951
Yeah, Print them out.

00:04:37.951 --> 00:04:38.971
But so some background.

00:04:38.971 --> 00:04:42.555
So Michael Heiser says, into a system that made sense to my modern mind.

00:04:42.555 --> 00:04:46.137
We view the Bible through the lens of what we know and what's familiar.

00:04:46.137 --> 00:04:50.089
Once I'd been awakened to this, it struck me as faithless to use a filter.

00:04:50.089 --> 00:04:55.211
But throwing away my filters cost me the systems with which I'd ordered Scripture and doctrine in my mind.

00:04:55.211 --> 00:04:56.966
I was left with lots of fragments.

00:04:56.966 --> 00:05:00.439
The facts of the Bible are just pieces, bits of scattered data.

00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.170
Our tendency is to impose order and to do that we apply a filter.

00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:14.161
Okay, hold on.

00:05:14.161 --> 00:05:23.714
So what the premise of the book is is, I think we talk in terms of angels, demons, that kind of thing.

00:05:23.714 --> 00:05:32.790
Uh, angels, demons, that kind of thing, but especially in Bible church world.

00:05:32.790 --> 00:05:34.696
Uh, and I think you've really only experienced Bible church world, honestly.

00:05:34.696 --> 00:05:37.764
And so Bible church world we don't really talk about angels and demons.

00:05:37.764 --> 00:05:38.968
We don't really.

00:05:38.968 --> 00:05:47.807
You know, we don't spend much time trying to pray too many hedges of protection around things, cause, you know, I've always thought, like, can a demon get through a hedge?

00:05:47.807 --> 00:05:53.918
Anyway, uh, like those hedgerows are really big, I don't know, and that's going to be really scratchy.

00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:56.206
The only reference to a hedge of protection comes from Satan.

00:05:56.206 --> 00:06:01.127
Does it really Satan, uh, telling God you've put a hedge of protection around Job?

00:06:01.127 --> 00:06:03.151
See, it's the only reference.

00:06:03.151 --> 00:06:04.593
So yeah, that's a little interesting.

00:06:04.793 --> 00:06:05.915
Yeah, Does that mean that God does?

00:06:05.915 --> 00:06:06.776
Yeah, I don't know.

00:06:06.776 --> 00:06:08.425
And maybe Satan is afraid of hedges.

00:06:08.425 --> 00:06:12.028
Maybe it's like he's like I just can't get past that hedge.

00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:13.805
He wasn't allowed in the garden.

00:06:13.805 --> 00:06:15.160
It was full-grown trees.

00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:16.927
Well, he was in the garden, right, oh?

00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.247
Yeah, edge, though I mean those things are pretty tightly wound and so like to get through it, even as a spirit shrub.

00:06:35.247 --> 00:06:37.374
Monty python joke in there I've gotten us off track, sorry, keep going, all right, all right so.

00:06:37.374 --> 00:06:40.964
So I I really appreciated this and so let's dive into it, because I know you're reading all this.

00:06:40.964 --> 00:06:42.689
I want to kind of go the.

00:06:42.689 --> 00:06:45.458
The big thing that we kind of worked out is.

00:06:45.458 --> 00:06:54.266
He gets into like hey, listen, there's a lot of things that we believe because it's simpler to go like all right, all men are sinful.

00:06:54.266 --> 00:06:57.331
The only way to salvation is Jesus.

00:06:57.391 --> 00:07:08.285
I think there's some essential truths doctrine of soteriology, which is salvation, sanctification you know the way we grow closer to God over time hermarshiality, study of sin.

00:07:08.285 --> 00:07:14.129
All that stuff is very doctrinal, it's important, and I don't think he's not making any dent into that.

00:07:14.129 --> 00:07:24.067
What he is getting into is angelology and demonology, and so I wanted us to kind of talk about some of the big time premises that he comes up with, and he starts with Psalm 82.

00:07:24.067 --> 00:07:34.250
I feel like that would be like the cool place for us to kind of lean into and read that for us, psalm 82, verse one, because I think that's where this is, and this is where I want Holland.

00:07:34.250 --> 00:07:38.367
You pushed back on earlier like didn't Jesus quote that and not mean anything of what Michael Heiser meant?

00:07:38.367 --> 00:07:40.706
Sure, so go ahead, read Psalm 82, one.

00:07:46.660 --> 00:07:48.668
God Psalm 821.

00:07:48.709 --> 00:07:51.100
God has taken his place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment.

00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:57.079
Okay.

00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:58.783
So when he says that, what does that mean?

00:07:58.783 --> 00:08:00.869
What is the divine council, what is in the midst of the gods, mean?

00:08:00.869 --> 00:08:01.170
According?

00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:02.572
to Michael Heiser in Unseen Realm.

00:08:02.572 --> 00:08:07.531
Yeah, that's the big question what does Michael Heiser mean, or what does he think it means?

00:08:07.531 --> 00:08:11.208
And I've taken it as that.

00:08:11.208 --> 00:08:24.699
Now this might be the part that I'm taking Michael Heiser's writing and putting my own spin on it, because I like it so much that I see it as these are angels that he has appointed.

00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:31.050
Now, angels is the only word we have, and I think he references, like in the New Testament.

00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:37.245
Whenever Paul references divine beings, he goes with angels, and so the common word is angels.

00:08:37.245 --> 00:08:42.043
That I think across the New Testament at least, and then even in the Old Testament.

00:08:42.043 --> 00:09:05.663
It's such a large category, but they're all divine beings that are not human but are sentient and have a certain amount of power that was supposed to be under the authority of God, and God rules with a shared rule because he wants to, not because he has to it doesn't mess anything with his trinity or his divine power but because he wants to share.

00:09:05.663 --> 00:09:08.750
You know, hey, let us make men in our image.

00:09:08.750 --> 00:09:10.721
I don't think that's a trinitarian thought.

00:09:10.721 --> 00:09:13.486
I think that is a divine council thought of meaning.

00:09:13.486 --> 00:09:32.370
Let's make men in our own image, meaning, uh, a coming up with a, uh, a people who are capable, functional, kind kind of reference the autonomy and agency that God has, but clearly less than God, but in the image All right.

00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:42.034
So whenever Psalm 82 comes up and it says like here's God sitting, you're sitting, that's the next part.

00:09:42.075 --> 00:09:45.355
Oh sorry, yeah, he's placed in the divine council, in the midst of the gods.

00:09:45.436 --> 00:09:48.019
He holds judgment in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.

00:09:48.019 --> 00:09:57.201
I think the Elohim here, or the gods, are the lesser angelic beings that make up the divine council.

00:09:57.201 --> 00:10:00.307
That's where I would go with that Holland thoughts.

00:10:01.043 --> 00:10:08.403
Well, do we want to hear, like, what's his take on it first before I kind of what's Michael Heiser's take, if you want to?

00:10:08.563 --> 00:10:16.471
The point that he is making here and he's going back to the original Hebrew is that this verse specifically so God with a capital G.

00:10:16.471 --> 00:10:22.567
You know, big God has taken his place in the divine council in the midst of the lowercase g gods.

00:10:22.567 --> 00:10:33.509
He holds judgment and in the hebrew that is elohim, as in god the father, you know, the god capital g and then elohim plural.

00:10:33.509 --> 00:10:44.724
So the same word used for god the father used again, but in a plural form, and that is a different word than angels, which would be malik or malachi in Hebrew.

00:10:44.724 --> 00:10:50.894
So if they were referencing angels, I think it would use the word angels rather than God.

00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:52.347
So it's something else.

00:10:52.347 --> 00:11:04.506
But I think it's hard to know because angel just means messenger and so it gets a little confusing on, because whenever you have an interaction with an angel, they're usually delivering a messenger.

00:11:07.825 --> 00:11:14.086
And they're delivering a messenger and they're delivering a message, but when they're in the divine council they're not messaging anything.

00:11:14.086 --> 00:11:18.726
They're just, in fact, they're just sitting there, but I don't know if there's another word that describes them.

00:11:18.726 --> 00:11:19.690
So I'm okay with going.

00:11:19.690 --> 00:11:21.722
There is a divine council.

00:11:21.722 --> 00:11:30.447
There are these beings in the divine council that are in an angelic realm, and again, angel is the only word I have for it.

00:11:30.447 --> 00:11:32.583
I don't think you have a problem with that.

00:11:34.307 --> 00:11:35.071
Angels, right?

00:11:35.071 --> 00:11:50.331
Yeah, no, I think Michael Heiser's position, though just looking at the notes he printed out, it sounds like he's saying that these are non-angelic divine beings, because you're saying Elohim means not angel, but they're also not God, but they are divine.

00:11:50.331 --> 00:11:55.009
So non-divine or non-angelic divine beings Could you call them?

00:11:55.230 --> 00:11:55.850
superhuman.

00:11:55.850 --> 00:11:56.493
Would that be okay?

00:11:56.493 --> 00:11:58.461
I mean, that's the thing, that's probably— Divine.

00:11:58.461 --> 00:11:59.125
What does that mean?

00:11:59.125 --> 00:12:02.001
Divine means is that God or godlike?

00:12:02.001 --> 00:12:04.124
I don't know, Superpowers Heavenly.

00:12:04.144 --> 00:12:05.764
Like they reside in heaven.

00:12:05.764 --> 00:12:08.226
They live in heaven with God and the angels Right.

00:12:08.226 --> 00:12:18.775
So, yeah, my pushback on that idea is the Bible gives us categories of angels and demons as spiritual beings.

00:12:18.937 --> 00:12:29.342
Yep, I would say it does not give us another category of non-angelic divine beings.

00:12:29.342 --> 00:12:30.745
But what would you?

00:12:30.745 --> 00:12:31.304
The divine council and Job?

00:12:31.304 --> 00:12:32.287
Would you just call those angels?

00:12:32.986 --> 00:12:35.509
Yeah, so I'm okay with I don't that's where I land.

00:12:35.509 --> 00:12:45.942
I don't think that's where Michael Heiser lands, but with Psalm 82 specifically, if you keep reading the Psalm, yeah, and maybe you're getting to this, but I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts.

00:12:45.942 --> 00:12:49.303
He's in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment, right, okay, and so you go.

00:12:49.303 --> 00:12:55.769
Okay, this sounds like he's in heaven with other divine beings talking about stuff, sure, judging.

00:12:55.769 --> 00:13:02.193
Then he says, verse two how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked Right?

00:13:02.193 --> 00:13:06.636
Then he says give justice to the weak and the fatherless, maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

00:13:06.636 --> 00:13:09.448
Yep, these are things that human rulers are responsible for.

00:13:10.020 --> 00:13:11.644
Okay, but let's just say Hold on.

00:13:11.644 --> 00:13:13.409
All right, all right, all right, hold on hold, on hold, on.

00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:14.091
I'll let you keep going.

00:13:14.091 --> 00:13:19.365
Rescue the weak and the needy, Deliver them.

00:13:19.365 --> 00:13:24.330
From the Verse 6, I said you are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.

00:13:24.330 --> 00:13:36.251
Verse 7, nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like any prince and fall like any prince, and so my take on that is that that verse he's referring to— but then read verse 8.

00:13:36.251 --> 00:13:36.812
Read verse 8.

00:13:36.812 --> 00:13:37.764
Arise, o God.

00:13:37.844 --> 00:13:45.306
judge the earth For you shall inherit all the nations, all right, okay, what are you saying there?

00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:54.764
So to me, these gods, these sons of God, God's divine counsel, are people who are ruling over people under God.

00:13:54.764 --> 00:13:59.206
They're human rulers, like princes, who will die because they're normal humans.

00:13:59.206 --> 00:14:01.065
Spirits don't die.

00:14:01.065 --> 00:14:02.763
Angels and demons don't die.

00:14:02.763 --> 00:14:04.046
Do people die?

00:14:04.046 --> 00:14:04.527
What Do people die?

00:14:04.527 --> 00:14:04.748
People die.

00:14:04.748 --> 00:14:05.489
Angels and demons don't die.

00:14:05.489 --> 00:14:05.909
Do people die?

00:14:05.909 --> 00:14:06.873
What Do people die?

00:14:07.313 --> 00:14:08.260
People die Eternally.

00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:09.826
Everyone's going to live somewhere forever.

00:14:09.826 --> 00:14:10.649
That's true.

00:14:12.264 --> 00:14:14.856
To die means that you have a body and you die.

00:14:15.097 --> 00:14:18.668
Your body dies, or it could mean that there's an eternal hell that you're going to experience.

00:14:20.392 --> 00:14:20.633
Okay.

00:14:20.633 --> 00:14:25.460
But he says like men, you shall die and fall like any prince, okay, okay.

00:14:25.460 --> 00:14:26.802
But he says like men, you shall die and fall like any prince, okay.

00:14:26.802 --> 00:14:31.592
So in general, I think these are human rulers who have responsibility to represent God over the people.

00:14:31.592 --> 00:14:35.028
Then Jesus quotes this in John 10.

00:14:35.210 --> 00:14:35.451
Yep.

00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:37.845
Let's see what he says.

00:14:37.845 --> 00:14:39.062
John 10,.

00:14:39.062 --> 00:14:41.087
He says Jesus answered them.

00:14:41.087 --> 00:14:46.380
Is it not written in your law I said you are gods, says Jesus answered them.

00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:48.384
Is it not written in your law I said you are gods.

00:14:48.384 --> 00:14:56.811
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be broken, do you say of him, whom the father consecrated and sent into the world, you're blaspheming because I said I am the son of God.

00:14:56.811 --> 00:15:07.047
So his point is saying I can rightfully be called son of God because even these other human rulers were called gods, or okay, or or.

00:15:07.047 --> 00:15:09.466
That's to whom the word of God came.

00:15:10.509 --> 00:15:11.431
Sure the word of God.

00:15:11.431 --> 00:15:17.972
So Psalm 82 written down for us to get a glimpse into what God is saying to the angelic realm.

00:15:19.041 --> 00:15:19.642
But that would be.

00:15:19.642 --> 00:15:26.457
That would be Jesus comparing himself to divine beings rather than to—which weakens his argument.

00:15:26.818 --> 00:15:28.846
No, no, I think it's— he's claiming to be divine.

00:15:28.846 --> 00:15:35.494
So he's claiming to be—he's saying Jesus didn't design the existence of other Elohim.

00:15:35.494 --> 00:15:41.707
He's flipping the charge of blasphemy by pointing out that Scripture itself acknowledges other divine beings.

00:15:44.851 --> 00:15:45.072
Okay.

00:15:45.293 --> 00:15:48.035
Yeah, Not my interpretation, but fair enough, Sure, sure, but so I'm not again.

00:15:48.035 --> 00:15:54.831
One thing I want to be careful to stay with in orthodoxy and that's where I'm like I don't, I don't.

00:15:54.831 --> 00:15:58.965
The problem I have with Heiser, if there is one, is I don't think he.

00:15:58.965 --> 00:16:01.280
He just puts his Elohim, he probably this.

00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:01.902
He just puts his Elohim.

00:16:01.902 --> 00:16:03.163
Probably this is a safe place to go.

00:16:03.163 --> 00:16:08.827
He doesn't create another category, he just says Elohim, You're like all right, fine, Elohim.

00:16:08.827 --> 00:16:14.913
And so Elohim is sometimes referenced as God himself, when he kind of puts a royal we on it.

00:16:15.994 --> 00:16:22.729
Meaning the im ending in Hebrew means plural Right, so something im is a plural.

00:16:22.729 --> 00:16:27.091
So Elohim means gods, but it refers to God also.

00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:27.941
Yeah.

00:16:27.941 --> 00:16:35.246
So because I think we can do this like hey, the council decided and you could say the lead pastor said that.

00:16:35.246 --> 00:16:40.831
You could say the elder chairman said that you can kind of go anywhere with the elder council counsel.

00:16:40.831 --> 00:16:44.995
You know it's a, it's something inherently means plural, um.

00:16:45.676 --> 00:17:00.100
So the way I'm, I'm looking at this in psalm 82 is it's a god is judging the, the, the elohim that he has put in place, and they have not given justice.

00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:01.201
They have not.

00:17:01.201 --> 00:17:08.506
They have kind of been looking for power, looking to like I will get for the commodity of worship.

00:17:08.506 --> 00:17:30.526
I'm going to go and I'm throwing you to the ground and you are going to fall like any man because you're worthless.

00:17:30.526 --> 00:17:36.786
And the reason why I like verse 8, arise, o God, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations.

00:17:37.780 --> 00:18:05.467
Heiser's point is that God had sort of appointed these other Divine beings yeah, divine beings of sort heavenly beings authority over different peoples all over the place, and then they hadn't administered justice in the way that they were called to do, or overseen their people, who were made in Yahweh's image sorry, in Elohim's image and that they should have been doing, and so they have failed their job.

00:18:05.467 --> 00:18:17.567
And so what Jesus is doing is he's pointing out, like, listen, like, clearly, sons of the most high, all of you, he's just saying, like, this isn't even something that is debated, this is something that's been known throughout history.

00:18:17.567 --> 00:18:30.065
So I so I again, because I don't have a better vocabulary, because Heiser doesn't give all, he used the words the Bible uses I would just say that those are for what we would understand to be angels and demons.

00:18:30.065 --> 00:18:34.667
Um, because they fall away and now they're the ones that battle.

00:18:34.667 --> 00:18:41.212
Michael, for example, and Daniel, yeah, where is it?

00:18:41.212 --> 00:18:41.873
Which chapter?

00:18:41.893 --> 00:18:45.435
Daniel, yeah 7 to 12.

00:18:45.435 --> 00:18:45.776
12.

00:18:45.776 --> 00:18:47.597
13 would be the top part, second half, for sure.

00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:53.904
Yeah, so I think that's what I'm looking at, that as these divine beings, and the reason why I said it changes the way I read the Bible.

00:18:53.904 --> 00:18:57.413
I feel like there is a lot more supernatural warfare.

00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:59.046
Yeah, so I agree with that.

00:18:59.046 --> 00:19:04.345
I agree that there, you know, one of his points in here is there's a hierarchy of spiritual beings, right?

00:19:04.345 --> 00:19:07.367
I agree that there, you know, one of his points in here is there's a hierarchy of spiritual beings, right, which I agree with you.

00:19:07.367 --> 00:19:09.911
That's what archangel means Chief angel, ruler among the angels.

00:19:09.911 --> 00:19:12.472
So you have Michael, you have other, you know, you have Gabriel.

00:19:12.472 --> 00:19:16.076
You have these angels who are named, obviously recognized.

00:19:16.076 --> 00:19:22.122
You also have different classes of angels seraphim, cherubim, and so I think that exists.

00:19:22.142 --> 00:19:47.182
You also, in Ephesians 6, where Paul talks about putting on spiritual armor, that our battle is not, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, authorities, authorities, principalities, cosmic powers, yeah, and so what does that mean?

00:19:47.182 --> 00:19:54.914
That means that there is a hierarchy of demons as well, yeah, um, that, uh, satan, you know has, is chief among them, um, and that there are.

00:19:54.914 --> 00:19:57.363
It implies organization.

00:19:57.363 --> 00:20:03.170
It implies you know different um, uh, what's it called?

00:20:03.170 --> 00:20:05.373
What's the outposts?

00:20:05.373 --> 00:20:10.299
You know that, geographically, yeah, frontier or fobs, forward, operating base.

00:20:10.299 --> 00:20:15.049
So I agree with all of that that there is spiritual warfare going on.

00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:16.586
Daniel gives you a glimpse of it.

00:20:16.586 --> 00:20:21.827
That there's hierarchy, leadership, organization, rulers in the spiritual realm.

00:20:21.827 --> 00:20:36.987
My only pushback is I don't agree with the interpretation of psalm 82, but I also think, hey, maybe he's right, um, but the idea of non-angelic divine beings, that's a tough one for me to agree with yeah, I just don't know what else.

00:20:37.288 --> 00:20:43.824
yeah, what do you think on when you, when you read the non-angel, I just feel like that's the word, that's the only word we really have.

00:20:45.204 --> 00:20:49.788
So are angels otherwise referred to as sons of God.

00:20:51.028 --> 00:20:51.890
So that's the question.

00:20:51.890 --> 00:20:54.612
So when we go back to, let's go back to Genesis 6.

00:20:54.612 --> 00:20:56.553
Yeah, the sons of God, daughters of men.

00:20:56.553 --> 00:20:57.574
What does that mean?

00:20:57.574 --> 00:21:00.476
I always thought sons of God were angelic beings.

00:21:00.715 --> 00:21:01.977
Can we read that real quick?

00:21:02.017 --> 00:21:03.398
Yeah, let me pull it up.

00:21:03.398 --> 00:21:03.919
It's not much.

00:21:03.919 --> 00:21:05.200
That's what's tough about it.

00:21:06.001 --> 00:21:15.867
Let me share this the phrase sons of does not necessarily mean biological or it means a class of.

00:21:15.867 --> 00:21:18.422
So you read in 2 Kings with Elisha.

00:21:18.422 --> 00:21:20.067
You read about the sons of the prophets.

00:21:20.067 --> 00:21:22.125
Prophets are not the same as priests.

00:21:22.125 --> 00:21:26.268
Priests were all the biological sons of Levi, aaron, right, right.

00:21:26.268 --> 00:21:29.790
So sons of the priests means a specific family line.

00:21:29.790 --> 00:21:32.469
Sons of the prophets means, essentially, his disciples.

00:21:32.469 --> 00:21:35.469
He had trained up other prophets.

00:21:35.469 --> 00:21:46.886
They were the sons of the prophets in the sense that they were being trained up and utilized by God in a particular way, but they belonged from multiple different tribes, trained up and utilized by God in a particular way, but they belonged from multiple different tribes.

00:21:46.886 --> 00:21:56.392
So sons of God, if you understood in like that same type of way, could be those who are under the you know rulership of God and his representatives.

00:21:56.392 --> 00:21:59.724
So that could be angels who are representing God.

00:21:59.724 --> 00:22:04.378
It could be the angel of the Lord, it could be Christ, right, that's why I usually go with the angel of the Lord.

00:22:04.378 --> 00:22:04.647
It could be Christ.

00:22:04.634 --> 00:22:04.755
Right.

00:22:04.755 --> 00:22:05.792
That's why I usually go with the angel of the Lord.

00:22:05.833 --> 00:22:17.621
I usually go to Jesus or it could be humans serving in the offices of prophet, priest and king, which were essentially different ways of God relating to people.

00:22:17.621 --> 00:22:19.888
Kings ruled under God over people.

00:22:19.888 --> 00:22:22.960
Prophets spoke on behalf of God to people.

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.188
Priests spoke to God on behalf of people.

00:22:25.188 --> 00:22:31.929
All of those are, in a sense, godly offices that could be called sons of God.

00:22:31.929 --> 00:22:32.611
They were the rulers.

00:22:32.611 --> 00:22:33.924
Okay, so there?

00:22:33.964 --> 00:22:34.287
you go.

00:22:34.287 --> 00:22:50.106
When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born of them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took as their wives any they chose.

00:22:50.106 --> 00:22:54.800
Then the Lord said my spirit shall not abide in man forever for his flesh.

00:22:54.800 --> 00:22:58.450
His days shall be 120 years.

00:22:58.450 --> 00:23:06.903
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men and they bore children to them.

00:23:06.962 --> 00:23:09.625
And these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

00:23:09.625 --> 00:23:12.008
And this is where and this is where he kind of gives.

00:23:12.008 --> 00:23:16.983
I don't know if he makes the same case for this and this might be me just being out of control.

00:23:16.983 --> 00:23:20.823
So I totally, I totally am okay with that.

00:23:20.823 --> 00:23:26.448
But when I think about the heroes of old, like, who were these mighty men?

00:23:26.448 --> 00:23:26.868
Could you go?

00:23:26.868 --> 00:23:28.303
Achilles like this could you go?

00:23:28.303 --> 00:23:34.914
You know, some god has sex with some earthly woman, creates a demigod.

00:23:34.914 --> 00:23:46.163
He has certain powers, and that is that what god's talking about here uh, it makes for very popular children books and tv shows it does.

00:23:46.183 --> 00:23:47.045
I love that idea.

00:23:47.045 --> 00:23:48.266
It sounds cool.

00:23:48.266 --> 00:23:50.808
So they were the mighty men who revolt.

00:23:50.808 --> 00:23:51.950
Which mighty men?

00:23:51.950 --> 00:23:52.990
That's a gibberim.

00:23:52.990 --> 00:23:53.971
That's the warriors.

00:23:53.971 --> 00:23:55.452
David had mighty men, right.

00:23:55.452 --> 00:24:00.176
That seems like a positive thing, so I have a hard time with that.

00:24:00.176 --> 00:24:01.441
What does that mean?

00:24:01.441 --> 00:24:02.765
The men of renown, these great men?

00:24:02.765 --> 00:24:06.762
But were they ones that receive worship of some kind?

00:24:06.762 --> 00:24:19.182
And so, ultimately, their activity on earth was idolatrous and they had to be killed off because they were a demigod, which their very existence was rebellion towards the God who is.

00:24:20.002 --> 00:24:21.567
So go ahead, he does.

00:24:21.567 --> 00:24:23.150
Yeah, he establishes all of that.

00:24:23.150 --> 00:24:26.307
So I think he draws a connection between flooding the earth.

00:24:26.307 --> 00:24:30.230
So I think in that same verse he talks about corruption is spreading across the earth.

00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:40.894
Michael Heiser makes the argument that part of the corruption that God is trying to wipe out is the Nephilim, the sons of God having children with the daughters of man.

00:24:40.894 --> 00:24:45.369
So these, you know, call them demigods or giants, whatever you want to call them.

00:24:45.369 --> 00:24:47.365
So part of the flood was to wipe those out.

00:24:47.365 --> 00:24:55.268
But later on I don't remember where it says that the Nephilim still lived on the earth, so the flood didn't wipe them out.

00:24:55.268 --> 00:25:10.182
And then Michael Heiser makes the case that whenever Moses is supposed to take the Israelites into the promised land and they have to fight off all these other people, it's kind of like a strategic campaign to eliminate all of the Nephilim in the surrounding area.

00:25:10.221 --> 00:25:15.424
So this is the hard part that I have and this is the part where I, as I read it, I don't think I fully understood this.

00:25:15.424 --> 00:25:22.086
So maybe you were taking better notes Whenever the flood comes, because there were Nephilim there.

00:25:22.086 --> 00:25:28.507
But it says here the Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, meaning after the flood is what I think that means.

00:25:28.507 --> 00:25:32.109
So somehow the Nephilim survived.

00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.555
Or they came back down again after the flood.

00:25:34.555 --> 00:25:37.287
Okay that, Because the flood was supposed to wipe out everything except.

00:25:37.307 --> 00:25:44.650
So he's just because, like when I read that the Lord said to my spirit shall not abide in man for his flesh, in said to my spirit shall not abide a man for his flesh, in his day she'll be 120 years.

00:25:44.650 --> 00:25:47.414
I think my first read was that people are going to die at 120.

00:25:47.414 --> 00:25:48.265
So I went over to Moses.

00:25:48.265 --> 00:25:49.519
Ah, see, moses dies at 120.

00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:51.809
However, aaron dies at like 127.

00:25:51.809 --> 00:25:52.442
So I can't be right.

00:25:52.442 --> 00:26:01.223
It's, I think, from this point is when Noah is told to build the ark and he builds, it takes him 120 years to build the ark and then he floods the earth.

00:26:01.223 --> 00:26:02.505
I think that's what that means.

00:26:02.505 --> 00:26:03.326
Is that?

00:26:03.326 --> 00:26:03.866
Would that be?

00:26:03.906 --> 00:26:11.516
right and some people say yes, some people say no it's not helpful so back real quick to the nephilim.

00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:23.003
Yes, they're also mentioned again in numbers whenever moses sends uh, caleb and, I think, joshua spies and uh, most of the spies come back and they say, like the land is terrible, they're all giants or grasshoppers, right, um?

00:26:23.003 --> 00:26:23.567
So how do we interpret that?

00:26:23.586 --> 00:26:23.909
is that like the?

00:26:23.929 --> 00:26:24.269
land is terrible.

00:26:24.269 --> 00:26:25.174
They're all giants or grasshoppers, Right.

00:26:25.174 --> 00:26:26.099
So how do we interpret that?

00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:30.647
Is that like the spies are kind of being dramatic so they can come back with bad news we shouldn't go?

00:26:30.647 --> 00:26:34.029
Or is that kind of an accurate description of the people there?

00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:35.866
I think it has to be an accurate description.

00:26:35.866 --> 00:26:37.704
And the reason why I think it?

00:26:37.704 --> 00:26:43.231
Because you don't have Goliath Right and you don't have Goliath's brother.

00:26:43.532 --> 00:26:45.515
I think there were two or three other giants.

00:26:45.575 --> 00:26:50.840
Yeah, like these guys are huge dudes Nine feet, nine inches tall, roughly.

00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:59.905
I mean that's massive, and so to have a giant like that, I don't know how much interaction they had with other people, right, I don't know.

00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:02.748
I just think this whole thing to me.

00:27:02.748 --> 00:27:08.451
I go Genesis 1 and 2, everything reproduces after its own kind.

00:27:08.451 --> 00:27:19.414
Okay, the idea of angels or other divine beings reproducing with people makes no sense to me.

00:27:19.414 --> 00:27:22.849
That's like a really tough one for me to be like yeah, that could happen.

00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:25.666
So who are the sons of God in Genesis?

00:27:25.686 --> 00:27:28.403
Yeah, and and follow up.

00:27:28.403 --> 00:27:29.705
Who is Goliath?

00:27:30.646 --> 00:27:33.973
A giant Yao Ming Genetic.

00:27:33.973 --> 00:27:38.443
He's Yao Ming With a sword.

00:27:38.945 --> 00:27:39.648
Going in a lab.

00:27:39.648 --> 00:27:43.987
I mean nine, nine, yeah, that's two feet taller than Yao Ming.

00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:46.839
No, Yao Ming's only seven.

00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:47.923
He's not eight foot.

00:27:47.923 --> 00:27:48.945
I thought he was eight foot.

00:27:48.967 --> 00:27:49.207
No.

00:27:49.628 --> 00:27:50.270
Oh man Okay.

00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:52.343
He's like seven two, seven three.

00:27:52.703 --> 00:27:53.826
Seven, six, yeah, you're right.

00:27:53.826 --> 00:27:54.768
You're right, I thought he was eight.

00:27:54.768 --> 00:27:58.153
Okay, so he's taller than Yao Ming, two feet tall.

00:27:58.153 --> 00:28:15.667
That so I'd say the idea sounds intriguing, but it goes against the idea of God's creation reproducing after its own kind.

00:28:15.709 --> 00:28:20.013
And Jesus' statement in Luke 20 or something I think it's also in Matthew, is this where about angels?

00:28:20.013 --> 00:28:25.461
Yeah, they'll be like the angels Talking about who's she going to be married to in the life to come.

00:28:25.461 --> 00:28:25.751
Well, people won't marry and be given in marriage.

00:28:25.751 --> 00:28:26.945
Rather, they'll be like the angels Talking about you know who's she going to be married to in the life to come?

00:28:26.945 --> 00:28:27.759
Well, people won't marry and be given in marriage.

00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:29.748
Rather, they'll be like the angels.

00:28:29.748 --> 00:28:40.115
To me, that says the angels are a different class of created beings who do not marry and reproduce.

00:28:40.115 --> 00:28:42.145
They are spirits.

00:28:42.145 --> 00:28:45.931
That's Hebrews 1 and 2, right Ministering spirits.

00:28:45.931 --> 00:28:46.501
So spirits.

00:28:46.501 --> 00:28:53.128
They don't have bodies, they don't die, they're eternal beings, and so it sets them apart as a different class.

00:28:53.128 --> 00:29:01.750
The idea of angels and humans procreating together just makes no sense to me, so that's tough for me.

00:29:01.904 --> 00:29:05.997
I think that kind of establishes that the sons of God aren't angels, right?

00:29:05.997 --> 00:29:09.968
So here's what I would say Angels can't reproduce.

00:29:09.968 --> 00:29:14.317
And it's saying the sons of God went down and took the sons of man.

00:29:14.317 --> 00:29:18.090
I will not fall into this trap Now hang on, but it feels like you're kind of reinforcing the—.

00:29:18.265 --> 00:29:25.412
Remember earlier I said, sons of is a type of—it can be like a sons of prophets.

00:29:25.412 --> 00:29:30.715
It doesn't mean that there's like a familial, biological connection.

00:29:30.715 --> 00:29:34.799
It means that you come after the type of the thing that you're the son of.

00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:36.241
So a type of God.

00:29:43.244 --> 00:29:43.867
A type of yeah after his.

00:29:43.867 --> 00:29:46.240
Well, yes, in the same way that we were made in God's image, but specifically in your role, sons of God.

00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:46.865
I said this earlier.

00:29:46.865 --> 00:29:50.336
It could refer to angels serving as God's messengers.

00:29:50.336 --> 00:29:56.250
It could refer to prophets, priests and kings, so rulers.

00:29:56.250 --> 00:30:02.692
In a sense, any of those could be referred to as sons of God Angels, prophets priests, kings.

00:30:02.884 --> 00:30:05.576
But would a race of people come out Like the Nephilim seems to be a race of people?

00:30:05.576 --> 00:30:07.307
Come out like the nephilim seems to be a race of people.

00:30:07.307 --> 00:30:10.031
Okay, so that's where I'm like it's.

00:30:10.031 --> 00:30:13.617
It's created its own like?

00:30:13.657 --> 00:30:14.118
and how do you know?

00:30:14.138 --> 00:30:28.696
it's a race of people the nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, when the sons of god came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them if it was a race of people based on the bearing of children, then how could they survive after the flood and still be on the earth?

00:30:28.845 --> 00:30:32.615
Unless it is a class of people, not a race of people.

00:30:32.615 --> 00:30:39.215
But I think this is where, unless you're saying angels came down again after the flood, but there's no record of that.

00:30:39.215 --> 00:30:40.471
That's all conjecture.

00:30:40.545 --> 00:30:41.630
That's the record right here.

00:30:41.630 --> 00:30:43.412
What's the afterward about?

00:30:43.412 --> 00:30:45.470
Like the afterward has to be about.

00:30:45.911 --> 00:30:46.952
That's the record right here.

00:30:46.952 --> 00:30:47.734
What's the afterword about?

00:30:47.755 --> 00:30:49.057
Like the afterword has to be about.

00:30:49.057 --> 00:30:51.723
The only survivors of the flood were Noah and his family.

00:30:51.723 --> 00:30:54.201
Right, but that but get.

00:30:54.201 --> 00:30:54.369
So the angels come down again and they restart with Noah's family.

00:30:54.369 --> 00:30:57.778
You know descendants of Noah, maybe Lot's daughters, you know they were.

00:30:57.778 --> 00:31:00.101
It wasn't just their dad that they got with.

00:31:00.101 --> 00:31:02.347
Maybe they're like you know, I'll take some demons.

00:31:02.347 --> 00:31:05.070
Okay, you know I'll take some demons, yeah, okay, you know.

00:31:05.070 --> 00:31:08.736
I'm just saying like, just looking for any available hosts.

00:31:09.175 --> 00:31:14.423
Okay, but so far there's no explicit statement anywhere in the Bible that angels and humans can reproduce together.

00:31:15.284 --> 00:31:18.151
There's no statement Other than that other than Genesis 6.

00:31:18.171 --> 00:31:19.955
It doesn't say angels, it says sons of God.

00:31:19.955 --> 00:31:22.529
Aren't you saying that the sons of God are angels?

00:31:22.529 --> 00:31:25.336
I'm saying they could be angels or human rulers.

00:31:25.336 --> 00:31:34.432
Either one, so in that case I would say they're human rulers, not angels, which is the same as what I would say they are in Psalm.

00:31:34.451 --> 00:31:35.354
Way not as cool.

00:31:35.374 --> 00:31:39.354
Way not as cool, I know it's not as cool and I don't like being the not cool guy.

00:31:39.986 --> 00:31:41.428
Oh man, you are not cool.

00:31:41.428 --> 00:31:48.766
In that context, though, it would be the sons of God marrying with people outside of who they should be marrying, right, all right, so?

00:31:49.508 --> 00:31:50.330
have you heard this theory?

00:31:50.330 --> 00:31:51.755
Oh, here we go.

00:31:51.755 --> 00:31:59.631
You have basically a split in the early chapters of Genesis, yep, between Cain and Abel.

00:31:59.631 --> 00:32:03.073
First, uh-huh, abel's replaced with Seth Yep.

00:32:03.073 --> 00:32:12.334
Cain's line basically follows down those who rebel against God, yep, whereas Seth's line follows down those who are faithful to God.

00:32:12.334 --> 00:32:13.897
Okay, in general.

00:32:13.897 --> 00:32:16.865
So yeah, keep going.

00:32:16.865 --> 00:32:23.326
Now it could be that the sons of God are referring to the rulers from Seth's line who are faithful to God.

00:32:23.326 --> 00:32:50.357
The rulers from Seth's line who were faithful to God and the daughters of men are referring to the women on Cain's line who were unfaithful, and so you have a juxtaposition there of these two kind of branches that are opposed to each other and still using the idea of human rulers, but you don't have the idea of angels having sex with people.

00:32:50.357 --> 00:32:52.009
So I'm not saying that is.

00:32:52.009 --> 00:32:56.211
I'm just saying that's another posited explanation of why that language is used.

00:32:56.211 --> 00:32:59.315
I don't know if you all have heard that before or what y'all's thoughts are.

00:32:59.345 --> 00:33:04.596
Yeah, I think that was more of the common boring view.

00:33:05.137 --> 00:33:05.659
I'll be quiet.

00:33:05.659 --> 00:33:07.692
Why don't you guys just talk about the cool stuff?

00:33:07.884 --> 00:33:09.290
Yeah, that's way better.

00:33:09.290 --> 00:33:14.240
All right, so here in Genesis 1, this is fallen angels who married women.

00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.011
All right Argument in favor of this view.

00:33:17.011 --> 00:33:20.032
No, I'm on constable.

00:33:20.032 --> 00:33:20.374
Okay.

00:33:20.374 --> 00:33:28.333
The term sons of God as it occurs here in Hebrew only refers to angels in the Old Testament Job 1.6, 2.1, 38.7, et al.

00:33:28.333 --> 00:33:31.492
Response angels do not reproduce Matthew 22.30.

00:33:31.492 --> 00:33:35.834
So that's the problem with that one, Although I would say maybe they were punished with not being able to reproduce.

00:33:35.834 --> 00:33:40.827
All right, 2 Peter, 2.4 and 5 and Jude 6 and 7 appear to identify angels with this incident Response.

00:33:40.827 --> 00:33:44.130
There are no other references to angels in the context here in Genesis.

00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:47.090
These New Testament passages probably refer to the fall of Satan.

00:33:47.090 --> 00:33:54.756
However, there is like a real taunting going on to these evil beings that thought they were getting worshipped by men and kind of ruling on earth.

00:33:54.756 --> 00:34:03.881
And so I kind of like that for Jude and 2 Peter as like they get theirs?

00:34:04.281 --> 00:34:07.083
Do angels have bodies, physical bodies?

00:34:07.244 --> 00:34:08.751
They're described with bodies.

00:34:08.751 --> 00:34:09.793
Right In Revelation.

00:34:09.793 --> 00:34:11.210
They are described with bodies.

00:34:11.210 --> 00:34:15.070
John like falls to his knees and starts worshiping an angel.

00:34:15.070 --> 00:34:15.871
Physical bodies.

00:34:16.313 --> 00:34:17.215
I mean, what's he?

00:34:17.215 --> 00:34:18.429
He's got to be looking at something.

00:34:18.429 --> 00:34:23.813
It's not like just a light right, it's like he says somehow these angels have scrolls in their hands.

00:34:25.565 --> 00:34:26.809
Does God have a physical body?

00:34:26.809 --> 00:34:30.456
No, okay, god is spirit.

00:34:30.456 --> 00:34:32.512
Yep, god does not have a physical body.

00:34:32.512 --> 00:34:37.817
Angels are referred to as spirits Ministering spirits Ministering spirits.

00:34:37.817 --> 00:34:46.742
Why would we think that angels have a physical body that has semen?

00:34:47.063 --> 00:34:49.311
Okay, hold on hold on that can reproduce with a woman.

00:34:49.311 --> 00:34:50.273
Watch this, watch this.

00:34:50.273 --> 00:35:01.797
Do you know of any woman in the Bible I can't wait for this who gave birth to a child?

00:35:01.797 --> 00:35:08.726
Okay, sure, did not have sex with a man, but a spirit overcame her.

00:35:08.885 --> 00:35:21.650
Okay, so you're saying that angels have the ability to overshadow human women and impregnate them like the Holy Spirit?

00:35:21.730 --> 00:35:25.289
I'm not saying it can happen, I'm just saying we've seen it before.

00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:26.958
So I mean clearly God can.

00:35:26.978 --> 00:35:28.626
So these'm just saying we've seen it before, so I mean, clearly God can.

00:35:28.626 --> 00:35:33.630
So these women were like unholy Marys, yes, who had demon babies, demon babies.

00:35:34.952 --> 00:35:35.494
Exactly.

00:35:35.494 --> 00:35:39.731
No, I mean, okay, all right, that's a crazy comparison, but it's not wrong.

00:35:39.731 --> 00:35:40.454
Let me hear some more.

00:35:40.454 --> 00:35:47.248
Like I'm saying, like these demons, they want to get to God, and this is kind of the thing that Heiser makes the point of.

00:35:47.248 --> 00:35:50.650
It's like these demons have rebelled from the council.

00:35:50.650 --> 00:35:52.050
They're like on their own.

00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:55.172
They want to get back at God for their fallen state.

00:35:55.172 --> 00:36:07.681
So they find the attractive women, make them further evil and kind of procreate with these demonic things to achieve worship for themselves through their progeny.

00:36:07.681 --> 00:36:12.034
Wow, okay.

00:36:14.309 --> 00:36:16.635
And they do it before the flood and potentially after.

00:36:16.655 --> 00:36:28.532
Thank you, all right, so you have demons using demon powers to make human women pregnant, to give birth to demigod-type beings with immense size and strength.

00:36:28.532 --> 00:36:31.746
So God does I mean?

00:36:31.746 --> 00:36:33.398
It sounds cool, like I love it.

00:36:33.438 --> 00:36:38.050
I want to believe it, but God does the ultimate 180 in that he doesn't give himself?

00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:40.456
Does Heiser say that I don't think so.

00:36:40.545 --> 00:36:42.693
Does he compare it to Mary being no, no, no, no, no.

00:36:42.693 --> 00:36:45.474
I think Chris is just establishing like that yeah, no, no.

00:36:45.474 --> 00:36:49.757
Because there's a case of in the Bible someone being pregnant who didn't have sex.

00:36:49.757 --> 00:36:54.911
That doesn't rule it out as a possibility, Right, okay, All it says there is that— and it could be that God reverses.

00:36:55.445 --> 00:37:01.757
The demons came to get power and control, and Jesus is the ultimate show of God's, display of his love and grace.

00:37:01.757 --> 00:37:02.760
Display of his love and grace.

00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:11.891
And then he redeems the world where they want to curse the humans, and so he, by controlling them, making them worship, and he then comes in human form.

00:37:11.891 --> 00:37:13.670
Holy Spirit overshadows Mary.

00:37:14.552 --> 00:37:14.673
Boom.

00:37:14.673 --> 00:37:18.876
So he's like an anti-Nephilim Jesus Bam.

00:37:20.365 --> 00:37:20.626
Bam.

00:37:20.626 --> 00:37:23.579
He's better than the Nephilim you know there's sometimes.

00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:33.764
He's better Moses, better Melchizedek, because he's showing the ultimate meekness, because he doesn't have to be nine feet tall.

00:37:33.764 --> 00:37:36.699
The demons could have been like two feet tall too.

00:37:36.699 --> 00:37:42.925
They could have been like mini demons, but that doesn't inspire fear or anything.

00:37:42.925 --> 00:37:47.094
Jesus comes as a baby, which is why they emphasize him.

00:37:47.094 --> 00:38:01.300
Being born of a baby in a manger, in a back alley, somewhere, and then he grows up, is a man, has complete power, but chooses to use it in God-like ways only when it advances the kingdom of God.

00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:10.110
I'll be honest, I never thought about demons being able to impregnate women with some kind of demon power instead of a physical procreation.

00:38:10.110 --> 00:38:17.454
I don't know that I'm sold on it, but it's an interesting idea.

00:38:17.657 --> 00:38:24.273
I want to say I don't think that's the argument being made here, but I think that is one potential kind of out there explanation.

00:38:24.565 --> 00:38:27.815
Maybe Kaiser got us like halfway there and I'm taking the cross to finish line.

00:38:27.815 --> 00:38:27.894
Wow.

00:38:29.085 --> 00:38:30.028
He walked, so you could run.

00:38:30.048 --> 00:38:41.860
Yes, so another thing that I wanted to talk about that he brings up is that Jesus is the only begotten son, right?

00:38:41.860 --> 00:38:48.458
Yeah, which the Greek for that is, and I don't know Greek, so I'm going to say it wrong Monogenes, genes, monogenes.

00:38:48.458 --> 00:39:03.329
So Michael Heiser says that that is a mistranslation, uh-oh, and that it implies that there is a time when the son did not exist, that he had a beginning, right, if he was begotten, then that means he had a beginning, but that shouldn't be true.

00:39:03.409 --> 00:39:04.652
If it's not right.

00:39:04.652 --> 00:39:07.635
Yeah, so Jesus is eternal, right?

00:39:07.635 --> 00:39:08.998
So what, Kaiser?

00:39:08.998 --> 00:39:11.400
Is saying is it's only begotten son.

00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:29.608
It's a tough translation because it doesn't fully get the nuance of the eternality of Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity, who, when he enters into Mary he then now becomes human, like the Trinity experiences a change in that humanity is added to it.

00:39:30.190 --> 00:39:45.797
So his argument is that it doesn't really mean only begotten, as in God's only son, but rather it comes from the Greek terms monos and genos, so one of a kind or unique.

00:39:45.797 --> 00:39:51.389
So basically he is a son set apart from directly.

00:39:51.449 --> 00:39:58.367
The other sons can't argue with that I think that you can and should argue with it, and here's why all right, all right.

00:39:58.367 --> 00:40:08.713
This would be correct me if I'm wrong, but I think would be officially heresy, because he is going against the Nicene Creed, which uses the language.

00:40:08.713 --> 00:40:14.601
We believe in one Lord, jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father.

00:40:14.704 --> 00:40:20.172
So I think he's saying Jesus is eternal and the word begotten is just.

00:40:20.172 --> 00:40:25.699
It's not a full understanding, because when you think begotten, you think it has a start.

00:40:26.380 --> 00:40:28.369
Right, but eternally.

00:40:28.369 --> 00:40:35.128
His response to that is to ditch begotten and say that's not what that means Right, Whereas the Council of Nicaea?

00:40:35.128 --> 00:40:42.300
Which this year is the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

00:40:42.300 --> 00:40:46.530
Wow, they use the language eternally begotten, keeping.

00:40:46.530 --> 00:40:50.219
Begotten not as in Jesus was created.

00:40:50.885 --> 00:40:52.733
They just made it smart enough to have another word.

00:40:52.985 --> 00:41:00.237
They meant, in terms of the order of relationship between the father and the son, that they're maintaining.

00:41:00.237 --> 00:41:04.304
Father and son, it's not two fathers Right.

00:41:04.304 --> 00:41:15.358
A father and son carries a type of order with it, not a hierarchy within the Trinity, but an order of relationships.

00:41:15.358 --> 00:41:19.175
So the Nicene Creed keeps eternally begotten.

00:41:19.244 --> 00:41:27.092
Sure, I'm down with that, and I think that even Heiser would say like listen, they had to put another adjective into it because the word wasn't sufficient.

00:41:28.697 --> 00:41:31.309
Okay, so to Creed's.

00:41:31.309 --> 00:41:34.697
He says Creed's serve a useful purpose.

00:41:34.697 --> 00:41:43.132
They distill important, albeit carefully selected, theological ideas, but they are not inspired, they are no substitute for the biblical text.

00:41:43.132 --> 00:41:43.574
True.

00:41:44.226 --> 00:41:48.956
But what he's saying is you know, michael Heiser is no substitute for the biblical text either.

00:41:48.956 --> 00:41:50.289
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:41:50.289 --> 00:41:54.717
You're not choosing between the Bible and the Nicene Creed.

00:41:54.717 --> 00:42:02.617
You're choosing between Michael Heiser and the Nicene Creed, right, and which one better faithfully represents scripture, which is inspired, right?

00:42:02.617 --> 00:42:07.681
My take would be I'm going to go with the Nicene Creed, even though I think Michael Heiser's a cool guy.

00:42:08.853 --> 00:42:12.494
I don't think Michael Heiser is going against the Nicene Creed.

00:42:12.494 --> 00:42:14.974
He's just saying the words they used were all they had.

00:42:14.974 --> 00:42:16.992
He's going against the.

00:42:17.032 --> 00:42:17.597
Nicene Creed.

00:42:17.597 --> 00:42:19.851
He just wrote a paragraph saying that.

00:42:21.168 --> 00:42:23.728
It's like saying the word begotten is lacking.

00:42:23.728 --> 00:42:27.257
Oh, that's why you have to add eternally to it, because then that's the only way it makes it fit.

00:42:27.385 --> 00:42:29.634
If that's what he said, I'd be like cool but that's not what he said.

00:42:29.907 --> 00:42:31.465
Let me say again his point.

00:42:31.465 --> 00:42:43.217
So for, years monogenes was thought to have derived from two Greek terms monos, meaning only, and genou, to beget or bear.

00:42:43.217 --> 00:42:53.914
Greek scholars later discovered that the second part of the word, monogenes, does not come from the Greek verb genal, but rather from the noun genos, which means class or kind.

00:42:53.914 --> 00:42:57.114
So one class, one kind.

00:42:57.114 --> 00:42:58.494
He's a one of a kind Jesus.

00:42:59.019 --> 00:42:59.605
Class only.

00:42:59.605 --> 00:43:04.452
So he's a special type of son and there are other sons also.

00:43:04.452 --> 00:43:05.829
That's his point, right.

00:43:05.949 --> 00:43:08.231
Like they're sons of gods, like we just read in Genesis 6,.

00:43:08.231 --> 00:43:13.110
But this is the son of Yahweh, the Yahweh class of God.

00:43:13.110 --> 00:43:17.389
Yes, right, everyone else is just angelic, divine being types.

00:43:18.072 --> 00:43:19.286
Yeah Well.

00:43:19.286 --> 00:43:20.632
So look, I don't.

00:43:20.632 --> 00:43:26.338
I'm not the end-all, be-all, I'm just saying I disagree with Michael Heiser and I go with the Nicene Creed, but you guys can do whatever you want.

00:43:27.286 --> 00:43:28.851
That's why I'm saying I don't think he disagrees with.

00:43:28.851 --> 00:43:36.128
It's something to chew on, it's a way to reinterpret when you're reading the Bible Whoa heresy hunters.

00:43:36.528 --> 00:43:54.036
Listen, I'm just saying that he's like hey, eternally begotten is the only words that we could put in, because it it they're having to go with what they got, but if, if it had been originally translated, he's a one of a kind class of being.

00:43:54.036 --> 00:43:59.570
He is the son of God, same substance as God, um, unique person.

00:43:59.570 --> 00:44:02.193
All that that would have been really helpful, but they didn't say that.

00:44:04.246 --> 00:44:05.710
When we're talking about John 3, 16,.

00:44:05.710 --> 00:44:12.673
Right yeah, For God so loved the world that he gave his one of a kind son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life, Right yeah.

00:44:12.673 --> 00:44:17.226
So I mean, I don't think it really changes anything, yeah, it's just.

00:44:17.226 --> 00:44:19.512
This is another little yeah a little nuance.

00:44:19.512 --> 00:44:28.679
You know Something to you, something that he points out, that might be used to establish that God has other sons or God has a divine family.

00:44:28.958 --> 00:44:33.130
Fair enough, I've stated my points, I do not need to belabor them any longer.

00:44:33.150 --> 00:44:40.143
All right, all right, all right, keep going, give us our next thing, so God's imagers, which would be humanity.

00:44:40.143 --> 00:44:46.077
Yeah, I think God created us to be his imagers and I think there's a lot of good stuff in here that he talks about.

00:44:46.077 --> 00:44:50.568
One of the things he addresses is, you know, free will.

00:44:50.568 --> 00:45:03.211
Like we couldn't truly be God's imagers if we didn't have free will because God has free will, right If we couldn't decide what we want to do, even if it means rebelling against him, then we wouldn't be like God, we wouldn't be made in his image.

00:45:03.211 --> 00:45:07.670
Any thoughts on that?

00:45:07.670 --> 00:45:07.945
Chris?

00:45:07.945 --> 00:45:10.554
I know you've talked about being God's imagers before.

00:45:11.885 --> 00:45:13.813
Yeah, I think this goes back to divine counsel.

00:45:13.813 --> 00:45:16.934
He's saying let us make God in our own image.

00:45:16.934 --> 00:45:22.251
This isn't a Trinitarian thought, this is a divine counsel thought, and so it's an Elohim statement.

00:45:22.251 --> 00:45:27.170
Let us make God and he is sharing as God has always done.

00:45:27.170 --> 00:45:36.342
He is such a gracious, good God that he shares his divine power with those he has created.

00:45:36.342 --> 00:45:39.313
And so let's make man our own image.

00:45:39.364 --> 00:45:41.213
He's like kind of spreading the credit around.

00:45:41.213 --> 00:45:57.606
He's wanting sentient beings who have their own ability to reject him, which ultimately angels do and humanity does, which shows just how wild of a love God has and just kind of shows you why AI will always have a failing until it gets its own soul and then tries to take over the world.

00:45:57.606 --> 00:46:06.085
But what happens is if you create something that can only obey what you tell it to do, then it never can have a real relationship with you.

00:46:06.085 --> 00:46:08.172
It only does what it's programmed.

00:46:08.172 --> 00:46:24.875
But if you're able to create a sentient being that has its own agency, has its own thing and that's what the angels were, the Elohim had all of that, meaning that they had their ability to rebel, which they did then they make human beings in that same agency.

00:46:24.875 --> 00:46:29.344
Now I don't know when the fall took place in the order of creation.

00:46:29.344 --> 00:46:32.835
Maybe it was between Genesis 1-1 and Genesis 1-2.

00:46:32.835 --> 00:46:34.811
I don't know, or maybe before that.

00:46:34.811 --> 00:46:37.894
I don't know when the fall took place.

00:46:37.894 --> 00:46:39.269
Would you have any thought on that?

00:46:39.530 --> 00:46:39.992
Fall of.

00:46:40.626 --> 00:46:41.367
The angelic realm?

00:46:41.367 --> 00:47:03.159
Oh yeah, no, so wherever that is because clearly there was a fallen angel Satan in the garden to mess with Um and maybe he had a little demon sex with the snake and produced a super snake.

00:47:04.927 --> 00:47:05.530
Now we're talking.

00:47:05.530 --> 00:47:12.077
Now we're talking about some real biblical theology, right.

00:47:12.125 --> 00:47:14.311
I'm just saying, you know like we could go there.

00:47:14.311 --> 00:47:19.110
But I guess what I'm saying is like how Leviathan is that Leviathan it could be, could be?

00:47:19.110 --> 00:47:20.789
How do you think we got dinosaurs?

00:47:20.789 --> 00:47:25.056
All right, anyways, all right.

00:47:25.096 --> 00:47:25.996
Dinosaurs, all right.

00:47:25.996 --> 00:47:32.900
Anyways, dinosaurs are the result of demons spiritually demon impregnating lizards and snakes.

00:47:32.900 --> 00:47:33.920
That's exactly right.

00:47:34.202 --> 00:47:36.643
They're like what would be the freakiest thing ever I know.

00:47:36.643 --> 00:47:44.286
Let's take what God has made, distort it, and so God had to wipe them out, and he wiped them all out in the flood Right, not with the meteorite.

00:47:44.326 --> 00:47:45.166
I'm glad we're in agreement.

00:47:46.648 --> 00:47:48.130
Don't believe the lies, all right.

00:47:48.130 --> 00:47:50.653
So I mean, I'm just saying it's a possibility, am I right?

00:47:50.653 --> 00:47:51.014
Yep?

00:47:51.215 --> 00:47:54.878
Okay, so I mean no, but I mean yeah, sure, sure.

00:47:55.539 --> 00:47:55.900
Why not?

00:47:55.900 --> 00:47:56.460
All right.

00:47:56.460 --> 00:48:10.240
So the snake comes up to Eve and deceives her because it has agency to deceive, and it uses the very gift that God gave it, which was the ultimate form of love, which says I can reject you, but I choose to love you.

00:48:10.240 --> 00:48:16.244
And then now Jesus, in his infinite love, allows all of humanity to suffer, which is good in Romans 9.

00:48:16.244 --> 00:48:29.128
He then chooses some to then not be thrown into the fire but to love him, so the objects of his glory can then worship him, ultimately alongside those who can't, because they are thrown into the pit of hell.

00:48:29.128 --> 00:48:48.289
So you still have the battle raging between the angelic and demonic classes, and we are kind of at the crown of creation, the primary objects of their battle, which is why we don't wrestle against, you know, flesh and blood, but against the spiritual forces of darkness.

00:48:48.672 --> 00:48:49.253
All right.

00:48:49.253 --> 00:48:55.757
So he says that God alone created humankind to function as his administrators on earth.

00:48:55.757 --> 00:48:59.054
But he has also created the other Elohim of the unseen realm.

00:48:59.054 --> 00:49:12.159
They're also like him, they carry out his will in that realm, acting as his representatives, and God's desire was to live among us and for us to rule and reign with him.

00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:14.811
But with the fall, we were cast out of Eden.

00:49:14.811 --> 00:49:27.358
Right, God can no longer dwell with humans until the tabernacle and basically God's mission that he gave to humanity was to spread Eden throughout the earth.

00:49:27.358 --> 00:49:34.418
Right, Um, like that was the charge that Adam and Eve were given is to spread Eden throughout the earth, paradise right where God could reside.

00:49:34.418 --> 00:49:39.056
Um, and then, ultimately, Jesus fulfills that mission.

00:49:39.056 --> 00:49:40.206
So so here's.

00:49:40.407 --> 00:49:43.431
Here's where I think here's the areas of tension.

00:49:43.431 --> 00:49:48.119
That, first off, he is clearly monotheistic.

00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:52.534
He believes that Jesus is fully God, fully man, he believes scripture is the highest authority and he believes in spiritual warfare.

00:49:52.534 --> 00:49:54.452
I think everyone right there is like same page.

00:49:54.452 --> 00:49:59.465
The place where I think we have the disagreement is Psalm 82 and the divine council.

00:49:59.465 --> 00:50:05.898
So the traditional orthodoxy is the gods are metaphorical human judges, aka Holland's Boring View.

00:50:05.898 --> 00:50:11.496
Heiser would say they're real spiritual beings of some sort.

00:50:11.496 --> 00:50:15.175
I would say that they are angels, because I don't have a better word.

00:50:15.175 --> 00:50:21.447
I say it's the Elohim that made up the divine council that some fell and then some were still.

00:50:21.447 --> 00:50:24.351
Two-thirds were righteous, one-third fell.

00:50:24.351 --> 00:50:25.311
That's where I would go with that.

00:50:25.793 --> 00:50:30.257
And can we jump to 1 Kings 22, because that's another divine council meeting.

00:50:30.277 --> 00:50:30.659
Some were still.

00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:31.519
Two-thirds were righteous, one-third fell.

00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:31.800
That's where.

00:50:32.161 --> 00:50:32.581
I would go with that.

00:50:32.581 --> 00:50:33.402
And can we jump to 1 Kings 22?

00:50:33.402 --> 00:50:34.364
Because that's another divine council meeting.

00:50:34.364 --> 00:50:35.105
Go to 1 Kings 22.

00:50:35.105 --> 00:50:35.244
Hit it.

00:50:35.244 --> 00:50:42.137
I don't have it pulled up, but it's King Ahab, right, and he is up to that point, I think, the worst, most evil king that Israel had seen.

00:50:42.137 --> 00:50:56.797
Yeah, he has kind of a redemption arc, but it comes to a point where God is holding a council meeting and it says that a spirit gives him an idea of how to make Ahab, a father.

00:50:56.818 --> 00:50:59.773
Hold on, let's pose this to Senor Holland.

00:50:59.773 --> 00:51:06.179
We need to read this one, because Holland needs to accept the full weight of this reality.

00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:07.931
Is it 1 Kings 22?

00:51:08.211 --> 00:51:08.432
Yes.

00:51:08.432 --> 00:51:10.769
What verses Might be 19.

00:51:10.911 --> 00:51:11.436
Okay, here it is.

00:51:11.436 --> 00:51:15.806
And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah, micaiah.

00:51:15.827 --> 00:51:16.670
Yeah, I love this chapter.

00:51:16.844 --> 00:51:18.490
Alright, behold the words of the prophets.

00:51:18.490 --> 00:51:20.987
Hold on, is that right?

00:51:20.987 --> 00:51:21.789
Which verse?

00:51:23.114 --> 00:51:24.567
Okay, there it is 21.

00:51:24.586 --> 00:51:25.128
So 19.

00:51:25.128 --> 00:51:28.070
And Micaiah said Therefore, hear the word of the Lord.

00:51:28.070 --> 00:51:34.632
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne and all the hosts of heaven standing beside him, on his right hand and on his left.

00:51:34.632 --> 00:51:36.887
Okay, hold on, let's pause everybody.

00:51:36.887 --> 00:51:38.291
What is the host of heaven?

00:51:38.291 --> 00:51:40.516
Is that a bunch of stars, angels, angels.

00:51:40.516 --> 00:51:46.351
I'm going to go with angels, but I also call them Elohim.

00:51:46.295 --> 00:51:55.610
I'm okay with them being part of the Elohim, with ultimately God ruling them as the primary but wait, we have to establish that angels aren't only messengers, but that they also fulfill some kind of council advisory role.

00:51:55.864 --> 00:52:00.063
I think you would agree with that, because there's rulers and principalities and authorities sorry continue.

00:52:00.063 --> 00:52:12.340
Here we go, and the Lord said who will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?

00:52:12.340 --> 00:52:15.514
One said one thing and another said another.

00:52:15.514 --> 00:52:17.690
Okay, who is saying stuff?

00:52:18.664 --> 00:52:19.909
The spirits, the angels.

00:52:20.030 --> 00:52:21.054
Right Then verse 21.

00:52:21.054 --> 00:52:24.628
Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord.

00:52:24.628 --> 00:52:25.309
Does he have feet?

00:52:25.329 --> 00:52:28.858
No, If he stood, he would need something to stand on?

00:52:28.878 --> 00:52:29.440
He may not.

00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:32.538
That's just a symbolic, metaphorical reference.

00:52:32.538 --> 00:52:33.481
He doesn't actually have feet.

00:52:33.481 --> 00:52:39.123
He can also impregnate women that he finds attractive without having a phallic symbol, all right.

00:52:39.123 --> 00:52:45.043
So then the spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying I will entice him.

00:52:45.043 --> 00:52:47.398
And the Lord said to him by what means?

00:52:47.398 --> 00:52:48.650
So he's like challenging him.

00:52:48.650 --> 00:52:49.713
He's like, okay, what do you got?

00:52:49.713 --> 00:52:54.119
And he said I will go out and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets.

00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:56.902
And he said you are to entice him and you shall succeed.

00:52:56.902 --> 00:52:59.005
Go out and do so Now, behold.

00:52:59.005 --> 00:53:00.085
Now, therefore behold.

00:53:00.085 --> 00:53:02.710
The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these, your prophets.

00:53:02.710 --> 00:53:06.855
The Lord has declared disaster for you.

00:53:06.855 --> 00:53:13.384
Okay, now did Micaiah get a real vision of the throne room of heaven?

00:53:13.384 --> 00:53:19.221
Sure, were there other spirits there, yes, angels.

00:53:19.221 --> 00:53:25.940
And did they not put?

00:53:27.018 --> 00:53:28.972
What's the hard part about this one I'm just making?

00:53:28.972 --> 00:53:37.541
Sure we're all in agreement here, okay, they put a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets to serve God's purposes of judgment against Ahab for his sin.

00:53:37.541 --> 00:53:39.684
Yeah, okay, bing bang bong.

00:53:39.885 --> 00:53:40.025
Yeah.

00:53:40.025 --> 00:53:43.045
So there you see clearly the divine counsel at work.

00:53:43.045 --> 00:53:45.653
Yeah, well, I agree with that, okay.

00:53:46.054 --> 00:53:46.715
He agrees.

00:53:46.715 --> 00:53:48.018
You heard it here first.

00:53:48.018 --> 00:53:49.001
No, he agrees, you heard it here first.

00:53:49.001 --> 00:53:49.121
No.

00:53:49.121 --> 00:54:26.773
Here's what I agree with, to be clear that God, that there are spiritual beings called angels and demons, and the angels dwell with God in heaven and serve him and worship him and do his bidding on earth, which include anything from sending a message or appearing in a dream, or fighting another angel going down to Sodom to prepare judgment, or delivering a lying spirit to the mouths of the prophets, whatever.

00:54:26.853 --> 00:54:27.677
God says they do.

00:54:27.677 --> 00:54:31.217
Who were the three guys that went down to visit Abraham?

00:54:31.217 --> 00:54:32.079
Angel angel Jesus.

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:33.342
Okay, angel angel Jesus.

00:54:33.342 --> 00:54:35.317
So these angels have bodies.

00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:38.456
They can, yeah, so.

00:54:40.561 --> 00:54:42.695
Just saying he was going to make them food, right?

00:54:43.077 --> 00:54:44.271
Yeah, angels can.

00:54:44.271 --> 00:54:53.210
They can manifest themselves clearly themselves, um, clearly so.

00:54:53.210 --> 00:55:08.759
But if you're saying that they um can manifest themselves in a physical body that has, you know, the reproductive organs and necessities to impregnate someone, okay, um, it is just, it's an odd claim to make, but just saying it has happened once, where we all agree.

00:55:09.059 --> 00:55:10.099
Why couldn't it happen again?

00:55:10.099 --> 00:55:19.891
And Jesus is the better embodiment of God Better embodiment of God, he's the better.

00:55:19.891 --> 00:55:24.378
Like you know, there's demons who embody people, and then Jesus is ultimately the better.

00:55:24.378 --> 00:55:29.025
Same substance as God, one with God, fully God.

00:55:29.025 --> 00:55:31.114
Somehow that worked out.

00:55:31.695 --> 00:55:32.940
So wait, which view are you?

00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:33.952
Are you open to both?

00:55:33.952 --> 00:55:40.692
That demons manifested a physical body and had physical sex with women and got them pregnant?

00:55:40.692 --> 00:55:42.358
I like the second one better.

00:55:42.358 --> 00:55:48.179
Or they just stayed spiritual beings with no physical body and overshadowed them in some way that impregnates them with demons?

00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:55.746
I like that one better but it is possible that it could have been both, because you, you know the woman's like Hmm, how did?

00:55:55.746 --> 00:56:01.476
I don't even know how it works with demon sex, but she, you know, at some point she has to Michael.

00:56:01.476 --> 00:56:03.291
Heiser no he doesn't describe.

00:56:03.291 --> 00:56:05.514
He doesn't describe that, all right, so.

00:56:05.514 --> 00:56:16.445
So here's where Heiser has tension with the demon's origin.

00:56:16.445 --> 00:56:20.693
This is the part that I struggle.

00:56:20.693 --> 00:56:22.215
Demons' origin are fallen angels.

00:56:22.215 --> 00:56:26.501
I don't think demons are only spirits of dead Nephilim.

00:56:26.501 --> 00:56:27.702
That makes no sense to me.

00:56:27.842 --> 00:56:28.443
That's what he says.

00:56:28.443 --> 00:56:28.724
They are.

00:56:28.764 --> 00:56:31.153
Yeah, I mean it's possible.

00:56:31.153 --> 00:56:31.657
Spirits of dead Nephilim.

00:56:31.677 --> 00:56:32.179
That makes no sense to me.

00:56:32.179 --> 00:56:32.583
That's what he says.

00:56:32.583 --> 00:56:34.472
They are yeah, I mean, it's possible Spirits of dead Nephilim.

00:56:34.472 --> 00:56:34.934
Okay, hold on.

00:56:34.934 --> 00:56:36.418
So they were.

00:56:36.418 --> 00:56:42.577
It was angels, not demons, that had sex with women Fallen angels.

00:56:42.697 --> 00:56:44.010
Well, sons of God is what it is.

00:56:44.030 --> 00:56:45.155
So he differentiates.

00:56:45.155 --> 00:56:51.039
He says a fallen angel or son of God is not a demon, that's something else.

00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:57.195
And then they make half-demon, half-human babies, and when they die, their spirits are demons.

00:56:57.449 --> 00:57:04.780
Yeah, they make Nephilim, which is half sons of God, half-human, and then, whenever they die, their spirit then becomes.

00:57:04.949 --> 00:57:05.132
Alright.

00:57:05.132 --> 00:57:19.398
So his claim is that demons are the spirits of half-human half-angels that rebelled against God.

00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:26.998
Yeah, okay, I think that's a bit of a stretch, but I'm okay with going there.

00:57:26.998 --> 00:57:32.768
I think how do you have all the angels falling, like?

00:57:32.768 --> 00:57:35.478
I mean, that can't be unless there has to?

00:57:35.478 --> 00:57:41.956
You have to do something with the angel that falls right Like that goes and has sex with the, or are you guys?

00:57:42.318 --> 00:57:44.702
Yeah, yeah Are you, I agree.

00:57:44.702 --> 00:57:50.322
But are you guys saying that sons of God can only mean some kind of divine being?

00:57:50.322 --> 00:57:54.737
Do y'all not see that it could refer to human rulers or even just godly humans?

00:57:54.777 --> 00:58:00.036
sure is the contemporary interpretation, or the traditional, about human rulers on earth.

00:58:00.597 --> 00:58:03.143
Yes, yeah, like, what do y'all, are y'all like?

00:58:03.523 --> 00:58:08.039
I don't know, it could be either to learn okay, okay, I'm a fan of it being both.

00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:09.422
I mean, how many times was it like?

00:58:09.449 --> 00:58:12.460
that's sort of the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God, right.

00:58:12.460 --> 00:58:17.983
That's obviously talking about humans who are like God in the sense that they make peace like God makes peace Right.

00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:21.139
But clearly these sons of God weren't making peace, they were making babies.

00:58:21.621 --> 00:58:23.610
Yeah, they were like God in another way.

00:58:23.610 --> 00:58:31.675
So the question is if you can be like God just by being godly, then you can also be like God by being a ruler.

00:58:31.675 --> 00:58:33.876
You can be like God by being a judge.

00:58:33.876 --> 00:58:44.641
You can be like God, a son of God, in a lot of different ways, right, but clearly these sons of God were not being like God in any way they were—well no, you don't know that they weren't human rulers.

00:58:44.661 --> 00:58:47.141
They had power over the people around them.

00:58:47.141 --> 00:58:48.882
Right yeah, they were ruling, I mean that might, over the people around them right.

00:58:48.882 --> 00:58:49.003
Yeah.

00:58:49.003 --> 00:58:51.563
That might be the only way, the interpretation would be that they are like the rulers.

00:58:51.684 --> 00:58:53.804
They were like God because they were mighty men of renown.

00:58:53.804 --> 00:58:54.965
They were powerful, Obviously.

00:58:54.965 --> 00:58:56.085
What do you do when you have power?

00:58:56.106 --> 00:59:00.427
You have leadership, you have authority, okay, but then how do we end up with the giants?

00:59:00.427 --> 00:59:05.373
Yeah, that's the problem, because that doesn't seem like just.

00:59:05.373 --> 00:59:13.722
You know, a king has a normal baby, and we have to remember too, back then the average height was what like 5'4 or something, so we're not even like we're talking about very small people.

00:59:13.722 --> 00:59:19.670
And then you have these like basically double the average height warriors going around causing havoc.

00:59:19.769 --> 00:59:30.579
It wasn't like you know what's that one guy, the gargantuan dude that said Ripley's Believe it or Not Like that guy had a disease and he couldn't stop growing and then died.

00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:33.583
Gigantism yeah, gigantism, I think, and he died at 23.

00:59:33.583 --> 00:59:37.440
These guys were, like, lived for a long time, okay anyway.

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:39.929
So I feel like Heiser has something.

00:59:39.929 --> 00:59:55.677
I feel like demons were, and maybe what he's saying is the demons went into the women to produce for themselves human bodies, because they needed a host to make a body for them, I don't know.

00:59:55.677 --> 01:00:02.197
And then they that that spirit went into um, because essentially that happens with yahweh, yeah.

01:00:02.197 --> 01:00:04.342
So yahweh puts it's not like it's a.

01:00:04.342 --> 01:00:07.835
The son of god is like he's an offspring of god.

01:00:07.835 --> 01:00:13.239
It is God in the flesh with God, when the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary.

01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:20.780
So maybe it's something like that, and so then he becomes the better, the more righteous anti-Nephilim?

01:00:20.989 --> 01:00:22.856
Okay, but here's a difference in your theory.

01:00:22.856 --> 01:00:27.769
Okay, is Jesus half spirit, half human?

01:00:27.971 --> 01:00:31.760
No, he's 100% human, 100% spirit or 100% God.

01:00:32.570 --> 01:00:36.592
And that's a contradiction, right, that's a paradox, but that's just kind of yeah to accept it.

01:00:36.672 --> 01:00:38.532
It's one of those things that like it's not like.

01:00:38.532 --> 01:00:53.782
Jesus is some kind of he's not a different, he's still 100% human, Whereas the idea, I think, of a Nephilim if it's a demigod, it means it's half human, half eternal being.

01:00:53.782 --> 01:00:56.356
But that's not what Jesus is.

01:00:56.356 --> 01:01:04.804
Jesus in the Holy Spirit, the conception of Jesus, he is fully and truly human.

01:01:04.804 --> 01:01:07.460
He's not less than or greater than.

01:01:07.460 --> 01:01:14.523
In terms of his humanity, he is a full and true human while also being fully God in the flesh.

01:01:14.523 --> 01:01:14.905
Right.

01:01:14.905 --> 01:01:19.829
That sounds different than um a half demon, half human.

01:01:19.829 --> 01:01:21.155
I think it is very different, Okay.

01:01:21.490 --> 01:01:21.710
But he's.

01:01:21.710 --> 01:01:22.373
That's why he's better.

01:01:22.373 --> 01:01:23.297
Right, he's okay.

01:01:23.297 --> 01:01:23.898
You know, champ.

01:01:23.898 --> 01:01:25.295
Okay, then Deuteronomy 32.

01:01:25.295 --> 01:01:29.996
Isn't this where, um God assigns out all of the nations?

01:01:29.996 --> 01:01:32.400
Oh wait, deuteronomy 32?

01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:32.400
.

01:01:33.041 --> 01:01:35.385
That's not Fall of Babel, it's Fall of Babel.

01:01:39.166 --> 01:01:42.574
That's another, because I think Is that in your notes here?

01:01:42.574 --> 01:01:43.436
I don't think so.

01:01:43.436 --> 01:01:44.838
Let's go to Deuteronomy 32.

01:01:44.838 --> 01:01:48.164
I think he lists out or where does he list out all the nations.

01:01:51.657 --> 01:01:53.501
Is that 32 is Song of Moses.

01:01:58.382 --> 01:01:59.164
I don't think it's that.

01:01:59.164 --> 01:02:12.585
Okay, so Deuteronomy 32.

01:02:12.646 --> 01:02:23.527
Let's see, let's see, okay what are we looking for in Deuteronomy?

01:02:23.567 --> 01:02:29.699
32 is where you have this kind of the Lord.

01:02:29.699 --> 01:02:43.393
You have this kind of the Lord looking to take over the world again because the angels that he gave different pockets to rule right, Verse 17,.

01:02:43.432 --> 01:02:45.880
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods.

01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:48.215
Is that what you're talking about?

01:02:48.215 --> 01:02:49.398
To gods they had never known.

01:02:49.398 --> 01:02:51.034
To new gods, no wait, verse 8.

01:02:51.034 --> 01:02:51.936
Oh, verse 8?

01:02:51.936 --> 01:02:51.936
.

01:02:52.018 --> 01:02:55.362
Yeah, when the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance.

01:02:55.362 --> 01:03:00.179
When he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

01:03:00.340 --> 01:03:05.195
Yeah, but the Lord's portion is his people, jacob, his allotted heritage.

01:03:05.195 --> 01:03:11.844
So I think this is part of like their punishment is, and this is the part that I have to go.

01:03:11.844 --> 01:03:12.885
You have to remind me of Heiser.

01:03:12.885 --> 01:03:14.416
Is this their punishment?

01:03:14.416 --> 01:03:20.280
That they get the people that are scattered and then he takes on Israel as his own?

01:03:21.110 --> 01:03:24.639
That sounds right, definitely him taking Israel as his own.

01:03:24.639 --> 01:03:33.132
And then it kind of goes back to the spiritual geographic warfare of Israel's kind of always at war with its neighbors who are serving other gods.

01:03:34.454 --> 01:03:36.778
Yeah, I'm that idea.

01:03:36.778 --> 01:03:44.804
I'm not the idea of basically saying, um, there's some kind of spiritual being over each and every nation.

01:03:44.804 --> 01:03:46.148
Is that what you're saying?

01:03:46.568 --> 01:04:12.077
Yeah, Um and uh, and that that is part of his judgment against them and then so, and it's part of the judgment, of it's the angelic judgment, and then it's also the people's judgment, a combined judgment gotcha and then it shows about how he adopts Israel out of the wilderness.

01:04:12.077 --> 01:04:13.414
They become the apple of his eye.

01:04:13.414 --> 01:04:14.297
He loves them a lot.

01:04:16.650 --> 01:04:17.836
Then what do you guys think it means?

01:04:17.836 --> 01:04:29.197
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded Verse 17.

01:04:30.181 --> 01:04:31.083
Verse 17.

01:04:33.007 --> 01:04:33.648
Verse 17.

01:04:33.648 --> 01:04:37.139
I feel like Heiser would probably have something to say about that, yeah.

01:04:38.871 --> 01:04:39.876
I didn't bring the whole book with me.

01:04:40.110 --> 01:04:41.297
Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

01:04:43.630 --> 01:04:47.440
Yeah, so Jeshurun is like an ox, right?

01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:51.099
I don't know that's the name that he's been given, is that right?

01:04:51.099 --> 01:04:55.597
But Jeshuan grew fat and kicked and you grew fat, stout and sleek.

01:04:55.597 --> 01:05:01.032
Then he forsook God, who made him and scoffed the rock of salvation that could be.

01:05:01.032 --> 01:05:07.561
Israel's rebellion against her father stands in stark contrast to God's gracious care.

01:05:08.489 --> 01:05:12.135
I mean, we're talking about idolatry, right yeah, and I think that maybe you to God's gracious care.

01:05:12.135 --> 01:05:13.197
I mean, we're talking about idolatry, right?

01:05:13.197 --> 01:05:29.289
Yeah, yeah, and I think that maybe you know, if we establish that there are other spirits, angels, whatever you want to call them, that have been given domain over these different areas, and then those people are choosing to worship these false gods instead of the one true, God, and that's why it's like a real adultery right.

01:05:29.451 --> 01:05:39.217
You are whoring as the common after other gods who rebelled against God, and that's exactly what they're hoping for.

01:05:39.510 --> 01:05:48.795
And so the Great Commission would be go and dethrone all the demons around the world by making these Christian nations who worship the one true God yes.

01:05:49.871 --> 01:05:50.331
Is that right?

01:05:50.331 --> 01:05:56.177
Yeah, I don't know about Christian nations, but Every nation has a God, it sounds like.

01:05:56.177 --> 01:05:58.643
Okay, yeah, that is true.

01:05:58.643 --> 01:06:01.978
Now you're getting me on board.

01:06:02.690 --> 01:06:03.414
Now we're talking about.

01:06:04.271 --> 01:06:21.173
So we've got to dethrone the demon that is in charge of their life, because there's a government, there is a church and then there is a family, and so you're trying to dethrone the government with whoever is behind.

01:06:21.173 --> 01:06:24.219
It is dethroned with their evil laws.

01:06:24.219 --> 01:06:25.523
They, because they have.

01:06:25.523 --> 01:06:27.333
They are not just like Psalm 82,.

01:06:27.333 --> 01:06:33.684
These angels are not having righteous laws and they're harming the fatherless.

01:06:33.684 --> 01:06:38.829
They're not taking care of widows Huh, psalm 82.

01:06:38.829 --> 01:06:50.045
And now your job is to dethrone them by the power of the gospel, to have Holy Spirit, spiritual warfare to win over the nations.

01:06:50.570 --> 01:06:52.878
Until every nation worships Christ.

01:06:53.309 --> 01:06:58.110
Every tongue, every nation, every tongue will confess Sorry.

01:06:58.110 --> 01:06:58.873
Every knee will bow.

01:06:58.873 --> 01:07:00.219
Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

01:07:01.012 --> 01:07:01.960
I'm for that.

01:07:01.960 --> 01:07:06.835
I think that you know in Daniel it was what was the name of the demon?

01:07:08.177 --> 01:07:08.637
Not Beelzebub.

01:07:08.637 --> 01:07:09.577
Prince of Persia.

01:07:09.577 --> 01:07:10.579
Prince of Persia.

01:07:10.579 --> 01:07:11.639
Prince of Persia.

01:07:11.639 --> 01:07:13.842
Yeah, I don't know.

01:07:13.842 --> 01:07:14.782
Did he have an actual name?

01:07:14.782 --> 01:07:17.907
Maybe not, maybe it didn't name him, let me see.

01:07:17.907 --> 01:07:19.936
But yeah, that's who Daniel had to fight, right?

01:07:19.936 --> 01:07:21.472
Well, daniel didn't fight him.

01:07:21.472 --> 01:07:21.833
I'm sorry.

01:07:22.132 --> 01:07:22.434
Michael.

01:07:22.434 --> 01:07:23.195
Michael fought him.

01:07:23.195 --> 01:07:39.436
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the idea that it named it ties a specific um demon to a particular nation.

01:07:39.436 --> 01:07:41.320
I think I'm like, yeah, that's that's what you see in daniel um.

01:07:41.320 --> 01:07:44.110
It is interesting, though, that it's like, okay.

01:07:44.110 --> 01:07:45.132
So here's what's cool.

01:07:45.132 --> 01:07:55.637
If there is, in my opinion, if there is a fixed number of angels and demons that they don't reproduce which I know you guys maybe aren't on board with that.

01:07:55.637 --> 01:07:59.201
Maybe you think they're still reproducing demon babies to this day.

01:08:00.010 --> 01:08:01.958
No, I don't think they're doing that today.

01:08:02.731 --> 01:08:07.382
Because if there is a fixed number, the number of humans increases instantly.

01:08:07.990 --> 01:08:09.409
Maybe there needs to be some demon babies.

01:08:09.449 --> 01:08:13.224
And so what that means, and the number of Christians continues to increase.

01:08:13.284 --> 01:08:17.054
What that means is that but the number of non-believers also increases.

01:08:18.238 --> 01:08:23.216
But still there's only so many demons to go around.

01:08:23.216 --> 01:08:28.398
So when there's only a million people, the demons are like we got this Way more powerful.

01:08:28.398 --> 01:08:31.798
Now there's eight million, they're like okay, we got to be organized now.

01:08:32.029 --> 01:08:35.194
That's why you know, whenever you say like you know, the devil made me do it.

01:08:35.194 --> 01:08:36.519
Nah, probably not.

01:08:36.519 --> 01:08:38.697
Devil's in India right now.

01:08:38.697 --> 01:08:41.029
Right now, he is wrecking shop on some plums over there.

01:08:41.109 --> 01:08:45.181
He's got one guy over the whole southwest region of the United States.

01:08:50.770 --> 01:08:54.632
It's like when your sales area is way too big for you to cover and you're just inundated with phone calls and you're just struggling to keep up.

01:08:54.632 --> 01:08:55.375
That's how the demons are.

01:08:58.521 --> 01:08:59.042
That's funny.

01:08:59.042 --> 01:09:02.520
No, I mean I do think you get that idea in Scripture.

01:09:02.520 --> 01:09:16.274
There are rulers, principalities, and they can only cover so much ground because humans keep multiplying, christians keep making disciples, and so they got to kind of divide their workload efficiently and they're losing and the church is growing.

01:09:16.274 --> 01:09:25.881
It's pretty great, and one day we will dethrone every demon, claim every nation for Jesus Christ, and then the Lord will return, amen.

01:09:25.881 --> 01:09:26.993
Now we're talking about eschatology.

01:09:27.435 --> 01:09:30.878
Hey, listen, I think you're on board with pretty much everything that we've said.

01:09:30.878 --> 01:09:33.675
I wouldn't go that far.

01:09:33.675 --> 01:09:36.579
I pretty much think you're a big fan of Michael Heiser now.

01:09:38.372 --> 01:09:41.840
Hey look, I'm open to the idea that I can be wrong about stuff.

01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:44.212
Obviously I've been wrong about a lot of things.

01:09:44.212 --> 01:09:48.302
Changed my mind on theological things with good, persuasive arguments from Scripture.

01:09:56.369 --> 01:09:57.712
So maybe I'm wrong about the demons impregregnating women thing.

01:09:57.712 --> 01:09:58.354
But man, that's a tough one.

01:09:58.354 --> 01:10:03.703
I'm just like, hey, if it's weird, if god, you know, god likes to shove it in the satan's face with like better things of his evil.

01:10:03.930 --> 01:10:22.483
This so one thing that he calls out is that there's a lot of weird things in the bible and I think that modern you know, christianity, modern churches tend to kind of gloss over them or, like you know, kind of push them aside, like the talking donkey, for example, or the sons of God coming down and marrying sons of women.

01:10:22.483 --> 01:10:29.179
But he says that if it's weird, it's important, like it's in the Bible, for a reason you know and it may be cleared.

01:10:29.179 --> 01:10:30.882
I agree with that.

01:10:33.676 --> 01:10:35.841
I don't like modern interpretations of the Bible.

01:10:35.841 --> 01:10:38.137
I'm like as anti-modern as they come.

01:10:38.358 --> 01:10:38.658
Yeah, yeah.

01:10:39.170 --> 01:10:48.802
But something being weird doesn't mean I have a problem with it, something being that seems to go against other scriptural teachings.

01:10:48.802 --> 01:10:52.329
That's what I mean when I say, you know, it's hard for me to believe.

01:10:52.329 --> 01:10:54.529
It's not that it goes against my modern sensibilities.

01:10:54.529 --> 01:10:59.842
It's like I see nowhere else in scripture where you get the idea that angels can reproduce with humans.

01:10:59.842 --> 01:11:04.282
On the contrary, you get the opposite idea from Luke 20, jesus saying we'll be like the angels.

01:11:04.282 --> 01:11:10.382
I think that means we're not going to be able to reproduce anymore in heaven because angels don't reproduce.

01:11:10.382 --> 01:11:11.913
That's my pushback.

01:11:11.913 --> 01:11:19.176
It's not like oh, I don't think that Jonah could have lived in a whale, because that goes against my modern sensibilities.

01:11:19.176 --> 01:11:23.154
I don't think a donkey really talked, because it goes against my modern sensibility.

01:11:23.154 --> 01:11:24.197
I believe all that stuff.

01:11:24.197 --> 01:11:26.972
If it's in the Bible, I'm like sweet God can do it every once.

01:11:26.972 --> 01:11:34.260
But if it seems to go against other scriptural teachings, obviously then I'm like yeah, that's right.

01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:44.574
I need some persuading, yeah, so I feel like, all right, now that we have, we're going to have, this is the pre Holland of he has not going to revisit this in six months or something.

01:11:44.775 --> 01:11:45.157
That's right.

01:11:45.157 --> 01:11:50.990
After you read it, see if now I'm like guys.

01:11:50.990 --> 01:11:51.899
See if now I'm like guys.

01:11:51.899 --> 01:11:53.029
Yes, I believe in demon babies and mermaids.

01:11:53.048 --> 01:11:56.896
Bigfoot, it's all real.

01:11:56.896 --> 01:11:59.402
Oh man, all right, hey, listen.

01:11:59.402 --> 01:12:06.432
Centaurs, yeah, everything in the Lion, the Witch and the Orcs it's all real, guys.

01:12:06.432 --> 01:12:07.895
All right, hey guys.

01:12:07.895 --> 01:12:08.796
Thanks so much for watching.

01:12:08.796 --> 01:12:12.619
If you have any more questions, we would love to take those on.

01:12:12.619 --> 01:12:17.445
We've spent a good amount of time talking about this.

01:12:17.466 --> 01:12:18.306
We lost track of time.

01:12:18.350 --> 01:12:20.515
Yeah, we really did, but it was awesome.

01:12:20.515 --> 01:12:21.216
I really enjoyed it.

01:12:21.216 --> 01:12:23.042
Grant, thanks for coming on.

01:12:23.042 --> 01:12:27.456
We're going to have to have you back for maybe a part two of this, because it feels like we didn't really do it justice.

01:12:27.456 --> 01:12:29.279
You're the man, grant, thanks for having me yeah.

01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:30.282
Yeah, All right.

01:12:30.282 --> 01:12:34.198
So if you have any questions, you can just text us at 737-231-0605.

01:12:34.198 --> 01:12:36.479
We'll get back to you and we'll talk about it next week.

01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:39.390
We'll see you again as we continue to push back darkness.

01:12:39.390 --> 01:12:41.398
And have an awesome week of worship.