Oct. 27, 2025

Mutual Submission, Marriage, And Leadership

Mutual Submission, Marriage, And Leadership

Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here. 371: A throwaway line about “mutual submission” sparked a storm—and a much-needed deep dive. We open the Bible, sit with the tension, and then walk into the real-life mess of engagement, decision-making, and what loving leadership actually looks like when two strong people share a future. No formulas, no clichés, just a honest look at Ephesians 5 and how it plays out when feelings are high and stakes are higher. If...

Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 4

Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here.

371: A throwaway line about “mutual submission” sparked a storm—and a much-needed deep dive. We open the Bible, sit with the tension, and then walk into the real-life mess of engagement, decision-making, and what loving leadership actually looks like when two strong people share a future. No formulas, no clichés, just a honest look at Ephesians 5 and how it plays out when feelings are high and stakes are higher.

If this conversation stretched you or gave you language for your own home, share it with a friend. Subscribe, leave a review to help others find the show, and text us your questions at 737-231-0605 so we can tackle them next.

Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.

Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving

Support the show

00:00 - The Viral Quote And First Reactions

01:24 - Reading Ephesians 5 In Context

04:15 - Submission Versus Oppression

05:25 - The Four Ps Of Husbands

08:47 - Who Presides At Home

12:14 - Engagement Realities And Loss Of Agency

16:20 - Wedding Venue Decisions And Dynamics

22:18 - Processing Feelings And Fair Fights

25:28 - 1 Peter 3:7 And Understanding Wives

28:12 - Leadership, Trust, And Responsibility

33:19 - New Wave Feminism And The Church

37:40 - Gentle Strength And Healthy Masculinity

41:05 - Delegation, Discipline, And Family Culture

44:20 - Expertise, Parenting, And Final Authority

WEBVTT

00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:07.839
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.

00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:11.759
I'm your host, Pastor Plex, along with none other than Nicole SuperTrooper Troop.

00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:13.359
And welcome back to the show.

00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:13.839
Thank you.

00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:14.400
It's been a while.

00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:19.839
So we have a question that sparked a lot of conversation in and amongst the staff here.

00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.559
And it is this from a listener.

00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:24.480
And thank you for sending in.

00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:30.879
This is from a post from a guy named John Moody, not the question asker, but the uh influencer.

00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:39.280
He says, Hey, if brothers, if a woman uses the phrase mutual submission when talking about marriage, you're about to be in for a lifetime of sorrow and suffering.

00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:43.119
Run like your life depended on it because it does.

00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:48.960
Would enjoy both of you unpacking this thought and whether you agree or disagree and why.

00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:53.759
Well, I'll just be straight up.

00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:56.640
I think that he's being really dramatic.

00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:57.600
All right, all right.

00:00:57.759 --> 00:00:59.039
So you don't think you're gonna die?

00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:01.280
No, I don't think you're gonna die.

00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:06.640
I don't think that just because a woman says that, that you're in for a life of suffering and regret.

00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:14.400
Um you might be in for suffering and regret anyway, but that might not be the problem.

00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:15.840
Yeah, yeah.

00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:17.040
So let's get in.

00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:18.959
I think the text is really complicated.

00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:24.239
I think this is where it's important to know what text this guy is talking about.

00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:30.159
Uh so look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise, making the best use of the time because the days are evil.

00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:31.120
This is Ephesians 5.

00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:36.000
Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is, and do not get drunk with wine, for it is debauchery.

00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:44.879
But but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart.

00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:53.840
Give you thanks always and for everything to God the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

00:01:54.159 --> 00:02:02.799
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ the head of the church, its body, and is himself its savior.

00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.799
Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:21.520
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or a wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.759
In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies, he who loves his wife loves himself.

00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:32.639
No one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as the church Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.919
Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:41.280
This mystery is profound, and I'm saying that it refers to Christ in the church.

00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:46.879
However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, let the wife see that she respects her husband.

00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:47.360
Okay.

00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:49.919
That's the backdrop of where this verse is coming from.

00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:50.240
Yeah.

00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:59.439
And usually why people say that uh submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, um, because that's where the word hopotasso comes.

00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:03.039
And then it says in the next verse, wives to your own husbands.

00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.479
It doesn't actually say the word submit isn't in there, it's just borrowing from the word.

00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.039
It's this idea, like hey, also.

00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.319
Yeah, so submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.360
Uh, so how do you submit as a wife?

00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:16.960
You submit to your husband.

00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:21.199
How do you submit to your wife out of reverence for Christ?

00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:23.840
You lead her, but then that you don't submit to her.

00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.280
It's it's weird because you don't really submit to her, right?

00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:34.319
I I do think there is something to um a sense of looking out after her needs.

00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:34.719
Yeah.

00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:48.319
You can't have mutual submission in the sense where um where it's a husband and a wife because one inevitably is gonna be the leader.

00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:53.439
But if I think what this is saying is like he's going to the church, here's what the will of the Lord is.

00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:59.599
Hey, as a church, you guys need to submit to one another, men, and then now, hey, wives, submit to your husbands.

00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:01.520
And then he kind of explains what that looks like.

00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.360
And then husbands, love your wives.

00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:09.680
So I I don't think this is a mutual submission because mutual submission, it looks like this, which is really sweet.

00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:10.719
No, you go first.

00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:13.360
No, you go first, no, you go first, no, you go first.

00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.199
Well, and like, can we talk about the word submission also?

00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:21.920
Yeah, because that is unfortunately an ugly word.

00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:23.360
Why is it an ugly word?

00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:26.720
And um, I don't agree that it should be an ugly word.

00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.279
I think it's actually it's gotten a bad rap.

00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:30.480
It does, it has a bad rap.

00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:31.199
Yeah.

00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.680
Where how could where is it seen as a um New Age feminism, man?

00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:41.519
Like it's broken us down, like it just has screwed some things up.

00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:50.240
I don't know why people like it's like submission is equated to like subservience and like oppression, right?

00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:51.680
And they're not the same thing.

00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:54.560
So it doesn't say husbands oppress your wives.

00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:56.959
That's a different word.

00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:03.839
Husbands smash the woman down as crush her and that's not what it's rule her with an iron fist.

00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.560
Yeah, no, it says love her, sacrifice for her.

00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:08.399
As Christ loved the church.

00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:08.720
Right.

00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:20.560
And so I think what happens is I think we've we've we so far and I guess somewhere in the past, and listen, I we've done a good job maybe correcting, and then we overcorrected with with men like love loving their wives.

00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:26.800
Um, and so what's happened in our culture, like this is just just uh uh an observation.

00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:45.519
We have men abdicating their role as a protector, you know, like it used to be like a woman would find safety in the arms of her husband, like he would protect her, he would make sure they're gonna be okay financially, physically, and now it's like every man for himself.

00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:46.879
I think just culturally.

00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.240
So there's this the I guess the four P is protection, uh, there's pursuit.

00:05:52.480 --> 00:06:15.680
Like it's uh tough for men because if they pursue their wives uh intimately, it can be seen as like I don't want to say harassment, I don't go that far, but it can be like men have been so um passive, yeah, uh that they have kind of left the pursuit to their wife because hey, we're all equal here.

00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:20.560
Uh so you got protection, uh, you got pursuit, you got provision.

00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:40.480
And with the advent of the stay-at-home dad, uh, we have a lot of men saying, like, listen, I I I will just be at home with the children, and you go uh to work and you manage all of our financial situation, and I will be a kept man, so to speak, yeah, and take care of the children.

00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:48.079
And then and I and I feel like that's unhealthy in the sense I haven't seen it work out well for man.

00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:48.959
Yeah.

00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:53.680
Like inevitably that a guy is gonna feel purposeless, uh-huh.

00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:05.680
Um, and then the woman ends up doing both things, taking care of the children and working really hard and providing, and the guy just is like just there.

00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:06.319
Yeah.

00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:10.480
Uh and then um preside.

00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:12.000
Fourth P preside.

00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:13.279
Ooh, that's a fancy word.

00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:14.319
Rule over the family.

00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:14.720
Okay.

00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:18.959
Like, so what happens is when you don't rule over the family, someone does.

00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:28.160
Either it's the culture, uh, it could be the wife who then takes into a role of control and she treats her husband like another one of the children.

00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:37.360
And I think maybe over the past several years, we've sort of done a a weird thing, and maybe jokingly at first, but then ultimately I think it became a real thing.

00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:38.879
I gotta go ask the boss first.

00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:39.839
And so, what's that?

00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.959
You know, that's like the the boss being the wife.

00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:55.040
In fact, in in the military, um, we had a nickname for uh wives, and that was household six, which the six element in the army was the command element.

00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:57.920
And so that's who runs my house.

00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:02.160
I run at the job, but when we get down to home, she's in charge there.

00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:20.879
And I always was like that, sort of, and I know it was being funny, but then what happened, words matter, is that over time people started to believe that the woman was ahead of the home, and that brought struggle, I think, for our culture that has men genuinely going passive relationally with their wives anyway.

00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:21.279
I don't know.

00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.120
I know that's a lot to unpack right there.

00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:28.240
It is and I fire hosed you, but anything on all those thoughts that I just came out with?

00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:29.839
I do have some questions.

00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:43.440
Um, so I guess the first thing is is like so you said like the wife becoming the the boss, and I have to like go ask my boss.

00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:44.240
Right, yeah.

00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:47.840
So is is the ideal that the roles are flipped?

00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:52.320
Is the man now the boss and like suddenly the wife has to go and ask permission?

00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.320
So yeah, so the way that I would look at it is it depends, right?

00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:20.960
Yeah, there are some things that like as a husband, you could delegate the role of the authority over to your wife, which would be like so for example, there are different roles in a home, and and it doesn't matter necessarily who do them, what does who does them, who does them, but what does matter is that the authority of the husband is not, I don't want to say question, that's a but it he is the one that's supposed to be presiding over the family.

00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:28.320
So, you know, he might be a better cook, and so he's like, hey, I'm gonna make the food.

00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.200
Not because I don't think your cookie is awesome.

00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:36.320
Like, why put her in a role where she's not gifted, she's not great, and everyone suffers, right?

00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:41.039
Like that might be that's a but that's a decision that that husband would make ultimately.

00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.240
Now, I this is where if you love your wife, you're gonna hear her needs.

00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:47.039
Yeah.

00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:54.799
Like, and that's a part where I feel like what's happened culturally is women don't express needs because it makes them look weak.

00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:57.440
And when you look weak, then you just get run over.

00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:05.519
Yeah, as opposed to I express my needs, and then my husband, who is the fixer or loves to goes into solution mode and solves the problem.

00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:07.840
Um, but the problem is we're we're present.

00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:18.399
What usually happens with women, and I and I I know you'll be an exception to this, is what women start doing is they start telling their husbands what they need to be doing.

00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.039
And and that's usually a response because they're afraid of something.

00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.559
Um so like the women are afraid of them.

00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.000
The women are afraid, like, hey, I want my husband to be home with the kids.

00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:48.879
And so instead of saying, like, I need you home with the kids because I'm exhausted and frazzled by the end of the day, and I need you to take over and lead our family, instead of saying that, they say, You need to be home by four o'clock because I'm having dinner, or you need to get home by 5 30, or you need to because I have dinner out, and if you're not, it's gonna get cold, and like that's blah, blah, blah.

00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:53.840
And it's puts her in an authoritative role, which is not the design.

00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:04.080
And then so the guy's like, I don't want to create a fight, and I don't, and then it puts him in a position where it might be the wise thing for him to stay late at work for whatever reason.

00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:08.080
It might be, but then now he has to go answer to the boss as opposed to now.

00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.879
Granted, do men stink at telling their wives what time they're coming home?

00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:11.440
Absolutely.

00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:12.320
I'm not gonna.

00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.960
So that's why the height of communication has to happen.

00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:21.440
That's that's where it's like a husband can love his wife really well by sacrificially telling her, Hey, I will be home later this evening.

00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:22.480
I'm so sorry for that.

00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:30.240
But then she needs to be able to say, I have a need for companionship, I have a need for your presence, I have a need for your parenting.

00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.240
And and that's the type of conversation that needs to be having.

00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:42.639
And then that puts him in a place to fix the problem as the leader, as opposed to having his having his having his leadership cut off.

00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:44.240
Oh good job.

00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.039
Good words.

00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:45.840
Uh yeah.

00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:46.960
Uh does that make sense?

00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:48.720
Yeah, that yeah, that does make sense.

00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.759
I I think uh like the challenge that I have.

00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:53.759
As you are engaged.

00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:54.960
I am, I am engaged.

00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:56.799
Congratulations, thank you.

00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:01.120
Um, for anyone who didn't already know that, uh Nicole's engaged.

00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:01.759
I'm engaged.

00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:02.559
That happened in August.

00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:03.519
It's Nick and Nicole.

00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:04.159
How fun is that?

00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:05.200
In Squared.

00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:06.080
Oh, N Squared.

00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.840
That's what people, some people have said.

00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.120
I think that let's go with that.

00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:10.240
Yeah, probably.

00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.120
Um so yes, we're engaged.

00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:23.200
Um, and so I am grappling already with feeling like a loss of independence, a loss of agency.

00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:28.159
And not and like you kind of have a more um stronger feminine approach.

00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:28.879
I do.

00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:29.759
I do.

00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:32.080
Man, what great words.

00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:38.559
Well, and and listen, I yeah, you know, um I can empathize with that.

00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:45.039
So it's well, also it's like it's hard for for me just because of my personality.

00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.360
Like you said, I'm a little bit stronger of a personality.

00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.200
Um, I'm 30, I've been single my whole life, I've never been in a serious relationship like this.

00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:51.679
Hold on.

00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:53.679
So, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is like newsflash.

00:12:53.759 --> 00:13:01.840
You mean you can get to 30 without a serious relationship in middle school, high school, college pro post-college, and now all of a sudden you're getting married and you've never been in a relationship.

00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:02.639
Yeah.

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:04.080
Isn't that wild?

00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:05.279
That is amazing.

00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:10.559
I mean, I know that sounds like uh like I don't know how you feel about it, but I think it's great.

00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:17.440
For any teenage young adult girls out there who are maybe sad that they haven't had a boyfriend yet, it's okay.

00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:19.039
Yeah, way to go.

00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.679
It's okay.

00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:24.000
Okay, now I will say, now I always tell this to every couple, so you're not the first couple I've told this to.

00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:24.480
Yeah.

00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:34.080
Um, however, the worst part of your life relationally is engagement because you kind of have all the responsibility of being married with none of the perks.

00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:35.840
So I've heard you say this before.

00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:36.159
Yeah.

00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:40.320
Prior to when I was engaged, and I was like, Chris doesn't know what he's talking about.

00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:42.080
I am the exception.

00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:48.240
And now and now I'm engaged, and I was like, Chris is right.

00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:49.919
Chris is right.

00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:52.480
Yeah, I really gonna enjoy that moment.

00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:57.759
Which, if anyone knows me, my three least favorite words in the English language are Chris is right.

00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:58.799
Yeah, see, there you go.

00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.480
Um, I don't like that, but here we are, and I'm saying it live.

00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:07.440
Okay, so let's get as an example issue you might find yourself is deciding on a wedding bench.

00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:08.000
Yes.

00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:10.159
So let's hypothetically go there.

00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:11.840
How might that be difficult?

00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:18.399
So my fiance, who I love very much, yeah, shout out to Nick if you're listening to this.

00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:19.600
I love you.

00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:21.679
Um, because he probably will.

00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:22.240
That's good.

00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:29.679
Uh but he cares a lot, um, which I did not expect.

00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:30.240
Yeah.

00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.440
Because I've been told my whole life that like your fiance won't care.

00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.440
He's just nowhere to stand.

00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:36.000
Yeah.

00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:38.639
Just tell him what to wear and when to show up, and he'll be there.

00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:40.000
And I'm like, okay, cool.

00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.120
And so I've gone my whole life thinking, like, he's not gonna care.

00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.320
I get to make all the decisions, and that in fact is not true.

00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:47.120
Not true at all.

00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.080
He cares and he wants to make decisions together.

00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:53.120
And uh, it's wonderful, it's awesome.

00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.679
We have different ways of approaching problems.

00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:07.519
Yeah, he's extremely analytical, he likes data, and so he wanted to analyze every wedding venue and compare them against each other.

00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:14.159
And okay, so not as a man, I I hear that and I go, what else would you do?

00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.440
I don't spend that much time.

00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:19.919
You just go, I feel this is the place.

00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.279
I mean, a little bit.

00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.000
I do, I mean, I I do like look at cost.

00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:25.360
Like cost is a really big factor.

00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:26.879
What's included in that cost?

00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:31.279
So, like, there's financial cost and there's like value.

00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:33.279
Basic cost benefit analysis.

00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:40.480
And so, yeah, so like, okay, this venue is a little more expensive than this venue, but it includes like twice as much as what this venue does.

00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:40.799
Right.

00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.320
So, like, this venue is more valuable.

00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:46.720
And then, you know, oh, how did I feel when I was there?

00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:47.759
And what was the view like?

00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:50.000
And can I envision myself walking down that aisle?

00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:51.440
So, you know, there's a whole lot of like emotion.

00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:52.960
There's a lot of emotion tied to this.

00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:53.759
There is, there's a lot of people.

00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:59.039
Does he have the same amount of emotion tied to it as he's looking at venues, or is it just like pure numbers?

00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:00.480
No, there's some emotion.

00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:00.960
Oh, okay.

00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:06.080
There's there's some emotion, but I think it's easier for him to let go of the emotion than it is for me.

00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:06.799
Yeah.

00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.639
Um, and I kind of have this vision of a wedding in my head.

00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.879
Tell me, let's just go to your head wedding for a moment.

00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:14.639
Okay, my head wedding, man.

00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:15.120
Okay.

00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.279
So it's in a really beautiful place.

00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:17.759
Okay.

00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:18.799
Is it outside?

00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.559
Um, I would like to get married outside.

00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:20.879
Okay.

00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.679
I actually have opinions that I believe are grounded in scripture from the.

00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:27.360
I would love to hear this grounded scripture.

00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.480
Um, well, first of all, the first wedding, Adam and Eve, took place in the most beautiful place on earth.

00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.320
In a garden of Eden.

00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:34.879
Nice.

00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.399
The Garden of Eden.

00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.399
Where is what is up with this obsession with getting married in church buildings?

00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:46.320
Look, Jesus is real specific about who the church is, and it is not a building with four walls.

00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:46.879
Boom.

00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:47.759
All right.

00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:48.000
Wow.

00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.559
So, like, why are we stuck on getting married in a church?

00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:52.960
Like, not that that's not beautiful.

00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:53.679
Hey, listen.

00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:59.039
And if you're just everyone who just got married in church, including me, she just totally said your marriage doesn't count.

00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:00.720
So that's not what I meant.

00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:02.799
Don't twist my words, Christopher.

00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:08.960
Um, look, everyone gets to make their own choices and it's it's preference.

00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:10.240
It's not Garden of Eden.

00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:11.359
I'm down with the Garden of Eden.

00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:12.400
Yeah, Garden of Eden.

00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:21.359
So, like, I love and like I I have felt the most connected to God when I've been in nature, and there are like specific places where that's happened.

00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.559
And so I love the idea of getting married in the hills, surrounded by trees.

00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:32.000
Like, I want to get married outside, you know, hopefully in cooler weather.

00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.799
I'm not gonna make Are you going December wedding?

00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:36.880
Uh we don't really know yet.

00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:37.279
Okay.

00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:39.279
I mean late next year, sometime maybe.

00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:41.440
So are you so I I guess that gets into the price.

00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:42.640
Like, when are we gonna get married?

00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:45.680
Like, I love this venue, but I can only get it in this month or whatever.

00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:46.400
That's gonna be a part of it.

00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:46.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:49.359
So we're pretty flexible as far as dates go.

00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:52.240
We're looking at, you know, middle of the week, something like that.

00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:55.119
Middle of the week costs down, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, yeah.

00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.519
You could do it Thanksgiving week and then you knock it out.

00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.759
My brother got married Thanksgiving week.

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.559
See then it's like tradition already, you know?

00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:11.599
So um, but yeah, so I mean there are lots of options as far as dates, and I'm not tied to any one specific one, but um, I do want to get married in a beautiful place.

00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.000
Now there are some So can you tell me?

00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.240
I know are you allowed to share some of the places you've looked at?

00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:16.880
Sure, yeah.

00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:17.359
All right.

00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.880
Um, we looked at um High Point Estate up in Liberty Hill.

00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.440
It's one of yeah, Debbie Sass has done a lot of winter.

00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:24.640
Yeah, that place is beautiful.

00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:25.200
I love that place.

00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.599
Typically, their indoor chapel is gorgeous.

00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:29.039
Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:29.839
Indoors.

00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.759
I know it's indoor, but it's they do have a pretty garden outside, though.

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.160
They do, but the chapel like kind of beats that.

00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.279
Oh wow, you're US totally reverse course.

00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.799
Now, I'm not saying this might be frustrating for a potential husband.

00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:52.160
Um when you kind of get an idea, you I heard one thing, but then your first wedding venue you talk about, you say a completely different thing.

00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.960
Yeah, so he really wants to get married inside.

00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:58.960
Okay, and so is this the great compromise?

00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.400
And well, it's not on our list anymore, unfortunately.

00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.920
Sorry, um it's it didn't work out like pricing and stuff.

00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:06.559
Okay, got it.

00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:07.680
And it's like kind of far away.

00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.000
There are other venues that so that one's out.

00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:10.880
Liberty Village Gone.

00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:16.559
All right, but one of the ones that we're still considering is called Vintage Villas, and it's uh it's in Lago Vist.

00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:17.359
Oh, wow.

00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:19.200
No, no, no, Lake Way, sorry.

00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:20.000
It's in Lake Way.

00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:20.480
Yeah, yeah.

00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:22.319
Oh, I think I've done 620.

00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.000
Yeah, I've done that one on the lake.

00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:24.400
Yeah.

00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:28.240
Um, it's beautiful and it's a hotel, and that is an outdoor ceremony.

00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:29.680
But shoot, no, I don't know that one.

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.039
Beautiful gazebo.

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:31.599
Yes.

00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:34.319
With this um, it's wisteria vine.

00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:35.200
Oh, fun.

00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.839
And so it's green most of the year.

00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.440
Is it a hotel like hotel or is it like a bed and breakfast hotel type?

00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:42.480
It's a it's a hotel.

00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:43.200
Oh, wow.

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:43.839
Yeah.

00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:47.039
Um, but they it's like styled as like villas, yeah.

00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:47.759
Three different villas.

00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:48.640
Oh fun.

00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:53.920
Um, so it can sleep a lot of people, um, and you can block off an entire villa if you want.

00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.279
Um, and then but it like looks out over Lake Travis.

00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.160
Oh, gorgeous.

00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.920
And the landscaping is beautiful.

00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:01.359
So it gives you the garden vibe.

00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:01.839
Yes.

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:02.319
Okay.

00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:03.759
Very much garden vibe.

00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.920
Um, there's a really pretty terrace that's well shaded for cocktail hour.

00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.640
Um, the event center where they do the reception is also really beautiful.

00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:16.559
Um, you know, kind of like at its bare bones, like it's already a really good thing.

00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.160
So when you went there, was there something in your heart that said, This is it?

00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:21.440
Yeah, kind of.

00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:26.240
And then Nick's response was I like it.

00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:33.519
Or actually, so this this particular place was his pick, and it has been his pick from the beginning.

00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.079
Um in other words, just let him choose.

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.079
I that's kind of where I'm at.

00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:40.160
Cause like he has great taste.

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:40.720
Okay.

00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:41.519
He really does.

00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:47.680
The the three three of the three of our top venues, I think, were all his his find.

00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:48.960
Like all three of them are once.

00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.359
You're you're making you're raising the standard on uh fiance everywhere to get this right.

00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.599
I mean, that's that's because I'll tell you how much involvement I had on picking the wedding venue.

00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:01.440
It's like next to zip.

00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.279
Um, I was just grateful to get married.

00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.519
Okay, so so he got he he have you guys, are you settled or are you still discussing?

00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:08.640
No, we're still discussing.

00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:15.119
So we've kind of we've kind of determined what like what our top things are, and then the next step is go to the parents.

00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:15.839
Oh, nice.

00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:22.640
So he wants to get his parents' opinion just like on the three different places to like see what they think.

00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:33.359
Um, and then we're also gonna go to my mom and be like, hey, this is what it costs, like how much would you be willing to I mean, because man, anytime you bring more people's opinions in, it gets really dangerous.

00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.680
But man, I love I love the roll of the dice.

00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:44.640
But I think I think uh in an effort to honor his parents and help them because they're also paying for his they're paying for his sister's wedding.

00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:46.799
She's getting married in Mexico in May.

00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:55.680
Um and so I think it helps him give a little helps him give them a little bit perspective of like, yeah, this is what weddings cost.

00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:56.240
Yeah.

00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.279
So that's that's sweet.

00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.200
Yeah, I I think it's a really, you know, a really good thing.

00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.000
Um so you guys and pretty much manage this pretty well.

00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.000
I mean, what what what where's the tension come?

00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:08.720
Is there any tension there?

00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:16.799
All right, good.

00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:18.400
Suddenly I'm not.

00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.799
Yeah, so is there any okay, so this is good.

00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.640
This this is the tension of being engaged.

00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:22.880
Yeah.

00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:35.519
What other areas did you sort of assume you had, I don't I don't know what the right word is, uh, that you would preside over that now you're running into the uh he has opinions.

00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:36.880
All of it.

00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:37.680
Really?

00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:38.160
Yeah.

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:38.880
All of it.

00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:40.480
Except my dress.

00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.359
He's not said anything about that.

00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:44.720
Yeah, he's a very wise man.

00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.279
That's good.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.680
Other than that, looks great.

00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.559
Uh okay, so he has a lot of opinions.

00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:51.200
He does.

00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:54.640
He has a lot of opinions, and honestly, they're great opinions.

00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:56.960
Like so, so he has good taste.

00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.000
Yeah, it's just I think you're that's why one of the reasons why you're marrying him.

00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:00.799
Probably, yeah.

00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.759
Yeah, so okay, so for you, this is you're kind of running up against, I don't know, I'm gonna call it the flesh.

00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:14.480
Like, there's something in you that says, I I want to make some decisions here, and then he's kind of does it feel domineering initially?

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.400
Or tell me what the initial vibe is.

00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:17.599
It's like you're so controlling.

00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:22.319
What's the yeah, it is definitely it is definitely that.

00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.960
Like I said, I'm feeling like a loss of agency.

00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:25.839
Okay, good.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:34.480
Like it almost it like it feels like for me, and I want to be really clear that in reality is not actually like this.

00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:36.960
This is just how I feel for those listening.

00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:38.079
This is just how I feel.

00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:46.319
This is not reality, but I feel like my desires don't matter.

00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:47.279
Interesting.

00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:58.400
Like I I was kind of spiraling on this the other day because I was like, he's just gonna make whatever choice he wants, and it's not gonna matter what I think or how I feel, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:23:58.559 --> 00:23:59.599
And that's not true.

00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:00.079
Right.

00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:00.960
That's not true.

00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:02.640
He has said that's not true.

00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.759
He's been very clear about like, hey, what you think really does matter to me.

00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:20.559
The fact that we sat down for four hours on Monday and went through all of these venues together means that he wants my he wants to hear my opinion, he wants to hear my thoughts.

00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:29.279
Like, he wants to know, like So this is really helpful because it might not be that he actually got the I have feelings that aren't true speech.

00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.680
Did he get that speech or did he just get a lot of feelings?

00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:33.279
No, I think he just got a lot of feelings.

00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.880
Okay, so also like this is this is now like three days of processing.

00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:37.440
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:38.000
You've been processing.

00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:39.759
Like, I've been processing this for three days.

00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:45.680
How did he respond to you when you're like feelings, feelings, I have no agency.

00:24:45.839 --> 00:25:01.599
And then he responds with uh there was a very there have been several heated discussions where he's just like I don't understand why you're why are you angry?

00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:03.519
Ah, that's good.

00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.640
That's gonna be a that'll happen many a time in his marriage.

00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:13.119
Or you know, I think maybe he thinks I'm about to cry, and he's like, Why are you crying?

00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:14.720
And I'm like, I'm not crying.

00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:21.759
Um and I probably was, in fact, about to cry, but out of sheer spite, I'm gonna not cry now.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:22.480
Oh, nice.

00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:22.960
That is good.

00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:24.880
Which is just healthy and great, isn't it?

00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.319
So there's a verse for this that might be helpful to Nick.

00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:29.519
1 Peter 3:7.

00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:43.680
Likewise, husbands live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:44.160
Yeah.

00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.599
There's two so that's in there.

00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:47.440
Uh there's a since and a so that.

00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:56.880
Since they're heirs with you, and you're like, oh yeah, they come alongside me, so that my my prayers may not be hindered if I don't live with my wife in an understanding way.

00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:02.880
So I think this is like the understanding way comes comes in the there's gonna be a more emotion, and honestly, that's a good thing.

00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:09.839
Like the emotions that a woman has are great, and not all women are wired this way.

00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:19.440
But I think sometimes women like to like to declare that they don't have emotion, and usually when they do that, that means they're super emotional, they just don't regulate it well.

00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.079
And well, probably also avoidant, yeah.

00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:22.799
Avoidant, yeah.

00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:23.279
There we go.

00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:32.880
Yeah, not in touch whatsoever with your emotions, and so like they just comes over them in an eruption, and then it it's a lot of frustration.

00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:38.079
Now, on the flip side, men can become so dismissive, uh, you're overreacting.

00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:44.640
And so there is a there's a there's a middle ground here, but I think this is why men are called to lead.

00:26:44.799 --> 00:27:02.640
I think um when a man gives up his authority uh or as the head of the household and um is sort of saying, he's saying, I am now not responsible for you.

00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.119
It's now we're like, you know, oh, you made your own choice, you made your own bed, go lie in it.

00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:13.599
I think that happens a lot with relationships where we just sort of live our lives in the same home, but we're on our individual tracks.

00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:35.119
Whether whereas instead, if I'm responsible for you to love, nourish, cherish my wife in a way that's honoring of her, that where she has her needs met, her emotions are cared for, uh, and I'm ten I'm tending to her in a loving way, it blesses a wife to trust her husband more.

00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:37.519
And I think this is part of the process for you guys.

00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:38.400
Yeah.

00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:53.359
Because I like one of the really great things about him that is also simultaneously one of my biggest challenges is he is really good at pushing back.

00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:01.200
And I have never had that kind of relationship with any man ever.

00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:02.799
Like, what about your own dad?

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:03.839
Your dad doesn't push back?

00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:04.799
No.

00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.799
Do you just go, oh, this is the way it's gonna be?

00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:12.240
And he just like he he's just not even really emotionally available.

00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:20.240
So So the fact that Nick just doesn't dismiss you and also doesn't or he engages with you.

00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:21.920
He does, he does.

00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:30.559
Um the engaging is kind of rocky still because we're still figuring each other out and how to communicate and stuff like that.

00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:37.680
And I have a I do have a really hard time like communicating in the moment, like what I'm feeling.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.640
Like most of the time I'm just mad.

00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.440
And anger is a secondary emotion.

00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:47.759
There's something else down there's some wound down there.

00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:53.920
This and it takes me a couple of days to figure out what that second what that underlying thing is.

00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:54.559
Wow.

00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:00.240
So the whole I I'm losing my agency thing, yeah, were you able to articulate that to yourself then or is that something you processed?

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.279
No, I I kind of uncovered that yesterday.

00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:10.960
What a so like I, you know, the I was like, wow, I think like I think what I'm feeling is a loss of agency.

00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:12.960
Like that's what this feels like.

00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.480
I feel like I have no choice.

00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.440
And like I said, like that's not actually true.

00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:36.079
Um and and it kind of dawned on me, I was like, that submission is is is is this like it's trusting the one you're submitting to that they have your good in mind and that their decision is in line with the Lord's will.

00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:36.720
Wow.

00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:43.039
Um and my my thoughts and my feelings and my opinions do matter.

00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:54.160
He's taken the time to hear me out, and he's taking all of that into consideration when he makes this decision, but ultimately, like he's making the decision for us.

00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:59.839
Does that make you feel ultimately the fact that you have a future husband?

00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.519
That cares about the stuff that you care about, that matters.

00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:04.319
That's a that's a one.

00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:10.880
And the fact that he's doing that now while we're engaged, that's a big honk in deal.

00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:11.440
Oh, yeah.

00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:20.000
Because it means that he's he's like setting, he's trying to set himself, set us up now for success later.

00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:20.400
Yeah.

00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.000
And like it's so true.

00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:32.799
Like you when you play a sports game, you whatever it is, you have weeks of practice before that.

00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:33.279
Nice.

00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.000
So you don't just like go into it without practicing.

00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:36.720
Fair enough.

00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.200
And if you're cra if you're crappy at practice, you're probably not gonna do well at the game.

00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.960
You speak truth, all right.

00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.240
I'm just saying, and like this is the same thing.

00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:56.000
Like dating and engagement are are well, dating is an evaluation, engagement is more evaluating, but also like mostly preparation for marriage.

00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:56.480
Right.

00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:02.960
So if you're not doing it in engagement, wow, do you think that marriage is gonna be any different?

00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:04.720
It's good, it's really good.

00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:05.680
Because it's not.

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:06.720
Way to go.

00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:07.519
Thank you.

00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:09.759
That that's that's a lot of processing you've done.

00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:10.960
It's a lot of processing.

00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:11.920
The past several days have been.

00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:14.400
Oh, yeah, all the time.

00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:19.279
So, like, and I think this is where guys, uh, we don't live in this world um for the most part.

00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:28.799
But it sounds like what I've learned from my wife is that she'll take something I said, she'll mull over three different ways, put a bunch of different motives behind it, and go, like, if you said if you meant it this way, it means this.

00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.559
If you meant it this way, it could mean this.

00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:35.920
And then I would just like, I want to go jump off a cliff if I did that much mulling it over.

00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:41.279
Uh, but so for you, as you're you're thinking about the conversation, are you turning it over and over and over and over again?

00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:41.920
Yes.

00:31:42.160 --> 00:32:07.599
So is it true then, perhaps if a husband makes a decision the the that the wife is not totally on board with yet, that she'll probably turn it over a thousand more times and might get to like on her own without having to because sometimes men can grind where those say it again and again in three, five hundred different ways to make sure you get the point, as opposed to land the plane, trust that you're gonna think about it and walk away.

00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.680
Yeah, just trust that we're gonna think about it because we are, whether you want us to or not.

00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:14.079
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:14.640
So you might as well.

00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:16.480
Yeah, okay.

00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:27.279
So, and that's you know, I and part of what I do, especially when we have when we have a fight, or if he says something that kind of rubs me the wrong way, and I start to think things about him.

00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:27.920
Yeah.

00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:34.720
I ask myself, like, well, is that true of his character based on what I've seen?

00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:39.599
Um ninety-nine percent of the time the answer is no.

00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:40.240
Okay.

00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:48.640
99% of the time, what I think he meant, what I think he said, is not actually what he meant.

00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:50.640
It's not actually what he said.

00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.359
Um Do you ever remember wrong?

00:32:53.519 --> 00:33:01.440
Meaning like he said, I want to go to McDonald's, and you heard, I want to go to Wendy's.

00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:13.759
And like all of a sudden, you're now really upset about Wendy's because you were promised McDonald's, and then you get angry at him about whatever the thing was that you remembered wrong, and then he has to go like, I never said that.

00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.200
I think or do you nail it on on on with your memory?

00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.759
I think he would say that I do that.

00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:26.640
And I I probably do some of the time, but I don't think that's true all of the time.

00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:33.759
Because that might be the danger of mulling it over a whole bunch, because if you mole over the wrong thing or like you get a word wrong, or yeah, now you're thinking.

00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:40.000
Well, and like I need to go, I need to be better about going back to him and clarifying, like, hey, I think you said this.

00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.599
Is that what you actually meant?

00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:42.240
Yeah.

00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:50.240
Um, but doing that in a like in a neutral way is in a way of curiosity as opposed to a way of accusing that.

00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:51.359
That's difficult.

00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:52.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:54.240
So, you know, there's that.

00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:00.880
Um, but yeah, and and so what I've learned is that wedding planning is sanctifying.

00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:01.680
Very sanctifying.

00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:03.599
Very all of marriage is actually sanctifying.

00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:04.720
I have heard that about marriage.

00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:05.599
Yes, yes.

00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:07.440
But it also happens when you're planning a wedding.

00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.960
It doesn't matter.

00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:14.239
I don't think it matters how much your wedding costs or how big it is or where you have it or whatever.

00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:25.920
Like the whole process, like God is gonna find find a way to use that to work out the sin in you, and it's gonna be painful.

00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:26.480
Yeah.

00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:31.920
I guess my only piece of advice, just for your own sanity, is pick a date soon.

00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:40.320
Yeah, otherwise, it could flow till forever, and you you're you're fine right now because you've only been engaged for how long?

00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:42.320
Like two months almost.

00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:43.760
So you're two months in.

00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:48.480
Month three hits are hits, and it's gonna feel like this is forever.

00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:57.280
And then when you don't have an actual date, and then it's like, oh, we need to push it back to January because you know everything's booked, like I would I would jump on that.

00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.000
So that's what I'm gonna do.

00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.239
Yeah, I think that's I think that's the plan.

00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:09.519
Um we wanna we we are both like pretty in line with like we want to get this checked off like pretty quickly.

00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.559
So because once we do that, all of the other dominoes start to kind of fall.

00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:15.119
Yep.

00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:18.480
That it's gonna make all of your life a lot easier.

00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:18.880
All right.

00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:23.440
I want to go shift back to like we what you said of like new wave feminism.

00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.519
Talk to me about like where like where does that term come from?

00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.880
Uh and and give me some of your thoughts on what it means.

00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:37.039
Yeah, I don't know if that is the like actual technical term for it, but when I think it's like third wave, isn't third wave?

00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:42.800
Third wave is is, I believe, what what happened in the like sixties and seventies.

00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:43.360
Right.

00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.039
Like that's my mom's generation.

00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:46.960
So we're talking about the new wave, fourth wave, perhaps.

00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:47.920
Seriously, yeah, maybe.

00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:57.440
Um so it's what's going on right now where like the the really big the really big thing that people like to put on t-shirts is like the future is female.

00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:58.000
Yeah.

00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.920
And that scares the crap out of me.

00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:01.119
Tell me why that is.

00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:04.159
Um, you're forgetting half the population.

00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:06.239
Fair enough, yeah.

00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.880
Very important half of the population.

00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:12.800
And like we need strong, strong men.

00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:16.400
And I'm not I'm not just talking about like strong, right?

00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:17.760
It's like physically strong.

00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:36.159
I mean like like like spiritually strong, mentally strong providers who can who can build up and support a family, a household, a nation, right, whatever.

00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:40.000
Like the leaders that we have in this country right now are screwy.

00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.440
Um, male, female, whatever.

00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:45.679
They're all screwy.

00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:52.800
And the problem with that is that like the concept of fatherhood is like was like lost.

00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:53.440
Right.

00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.400
You know, and so you kind of see it coming back.

00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:57.039
Oh, yeah.

00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.920
Now for sure.

00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:59.199
I feel like like praise God.

00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:03.199
We're having like a revolution of men being like, all right, I'm done.

00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:03.599
Yeah.

00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:06.639
I I I'm not in fact, here's what's wild.

00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:12.480
This is going across like across the spectrum of Christianity.

00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.000
Young men are more active in church than young women by far.

00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:17.360
And we see it in our church clearly.

00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:20.719
There's way more young men than there are young women.

00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:21.199
Yeah.

00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:27.519
And that's because I think men have felt ostracized and defeated by the culture.

00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:33.199
And so they're gonna go the one place that says, hey, not only do we accept you, we're calling you to lead and be great and be strong.

00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:35.519
Um, I think you're right.

00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:44.559
I think the the new wave feminine feminism, or it is fourth wave feminism, came around in 2016 with really the Me Too movement, was like really the Yeah.

00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:53.280
And and then their intersectionality were like gender and race, and here's where I'm doubly disadvantaged, and we're gonna take over.

00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:03.920
Um and I think it's it's kind of got that's where you know toxic masculinity got at its height of like we are gonna fight back against the evils of men and patriarchy and all that.

00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:10.400
Yeah, well, and I will like I will say there is such a thing as like toxic masculinity or whatever.

00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:31.360
That's a buzzword now, but but there are like cultural concepts for that, um, where but but it's usually where like cult like culture, and I I don't mean like big C culture, I mean like small C culture within certain populations where like male aggression and male violence has been normalized.

00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:31.840
Right.

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:33.599
And like that's not what we want.

00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:36.159
I mean, we there's a whole t-shirt called a wife beater.

00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:37.440
Uh yeah.

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.679
Like it's that.

00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:42.320
And and like that's not what the Bible teaches.

00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:42.719
Right.

00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:45.440
That's not that's not anything like what I've seen.

00:38:45.679 --> 00:39:06.719
The men in our church are some of the like like in a sense like softest men that I've seen, but not in like a when you go soft, you can be like bambi pambi, but like when you see them interact with their wives or you see them interact with their daughters, like there is a softness, a gentleness, yes, to them.

00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:12.320
Um, but like, you know, when they interact with their sons, like there's still a gentleness, but it's different.

00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:22.880
And the fact that you can like differentiate that based on what your child needs, what your wife needs, what your friends need, you know, like I'm not gonna be tough love with every friend that I have, right?

00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:26.480
But with some of them, I'm gonna be like, get your crap together, you're better than this.

00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:27.039
Right.

00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:33.840
Um and I see a lot of the men in our church being that way with kids and stuff.

00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:35.440
And so that's really encouraging.

00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:40.639
And to know that those are the men that are pouring into my fiance is also really encouraging.

00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:41.440
Yeah, that's sweet.

00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:59.119
So I think that just the I think what's happened since 2016, really, whether that's the new wave or an extension of the third wave, I think I think what's happened is just an accelerant on the future is female, as opposed to this push for equality, it's a push for matriarchy.

00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:18.000
And what ends up happening is things break down real fast because men then sort of step out and become ultra passive when a woman is the head, and that becomes a broken space, whereas they become very engaged, even to the point where your fiance where they care about stuff.

00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:32.960
And I think in a in a space where women have been sort of like, This is my world, and I'm gonna do as I please, and you need to sit over there and be in the corner for having a man engage is actually a wonderful, beautiful thing.

00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:35.119
But everyone's gonna engage it differently.

00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:46.559
Like I still think there could men could delegate in a sense like, hey, whatever you want, I want to just support you in making your dream wedding come true, and you know, whatever the cost, you know, you know, you know, like hey, great.

00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:56.559
Um, but I do think there is that the transition of like men need to kind of set the tone for the home of like what what does discipline look like?

00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.400
What does love look like?

00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:00.559
What does spiritual life look like?

00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:06.320
What is all those different aspects that fall on the on the man's responsibility before God to really lead his family through that?

00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:13.199
Yeah, and that can be really hard, especially if you don't have a um a family background that was that.

00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:22.159
And so it can feel a little bit like the blind leading the blind a little bit, or maybe the the husband following her wife's lead who did have something like that.

00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:27.599
Yeah, and now all of a sudden he feels like, oh, I don't know enough to make a decision, whatever you want to do.

00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:34.559
And I think there comes a part where um people who don't know have have uh the onus, men who don't know, to to lead.

00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:40.639
And you're allowed to ask your wife, but then form an opinion and a conviction based on the word of God to then lead your family.

00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:41.519
Yeah.

00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:44.559
So I I'm studying to be a counselor.

00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:45.039
Yeah.

00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:50.960
And so learning about human growth and development and all of that stuff and different forms of discipline and stuff.

00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.679
I also have a lot of experience working with kids.

00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:54.000
Yeah.

00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.760
Um, and and Nick doesn't, and he's acknowledged that.

00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:01.920
And but like when it comes to raising kids, I like what you're saying.

00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:04.079
Like, I can give him information.

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:08.320
And it's the same thing that I would do with the parents of a of a minor client.

00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:12.800
Like, I can give you all of this information so that you then can make an informed decision.

00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:18.480
But like you are ultimately this child's parents, and like I'm going to respect your decision.

00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:20.960
Now, if it's abusive, that's different.

00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:23.039
But call the cops.

00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:23.679
Right.

00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:25.840
That's that's a different story.

00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:27.599
You know, we're not gonna tolerate that.

00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:33.840
Um but but like ultimately I have to trust that these these parents know their own child better than I do.

00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:38.480
Um they made this child together.

00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.360
In some cases, they've adopted them, they know their history way better than I do.

00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:45.760
They have a more intimate knowledge of that child.

00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:51.039
And so I have to trust that they're doing the right thing, even though I even with giving them all this knowledge.

00:42:51.199 --> 00:43:01.599
And so it's the same thing in I think in this husband-wife relationship, where like, okay, I'm you're almost basically a trad wife now.

00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:03.119
Woo!

00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:05.920
I love it.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:13.840
I mean, like this is you know, I I between the two of us, I'm the expert on children, right?

00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:19.760
But like ultimately, like he makes we do the I mean, this is not only just in marriages.

00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:20.800
We do this all the time.

00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.360
Like, no boss has all the information.

00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:32.480
You take the information from a subordinate unit, like when the army, and be like, hey, a scout said something on the ground, I'm gonna based on his information, I still have to make the decision.

00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.880
He can make a recommendation, but I make a decision.

00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:52.320
Um and I and I think what you're talking about is the same sort of deal where what the hard part for a woman who probably knows in her knows what's best, and then her husband makes a wrong call, she still has to kind of execute, and that's hard.

00:43:52.800 --> 00:44:01.760
So, yes, Leah Brown said something a while ago that I thought was really wise.

00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:03.280
Leah is a very wise woman.

00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:05.760
Leah is one of the wisest people that I know.

00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:13.119
Um, she's also a very strong personality, she's a very strong personality, but she does give space for her husband to lead their family.

00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:13.519
Yeah.

00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:14.480
And one of those things.

00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:16.320
We have a lot of strong personalities at our church.

00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:23.840
One of the things that she said is they were trying to make a decision about something, and she had given him his her opinion or thoughts or whatever.

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:29.360
And she was like, but ultimately he's gonna be the one that has to stand before the Lord and account for his leadership in our family.

00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:29.920
Nice.

00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:32.800
And I was like, Man, you're right.

00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:39.119
Like, like, because he's the leader, he will be held accountable for his leadership.

00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:46.079
And so if he makes the wrong decision, it's not on me, it's not on our kids, it's on him.

00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:49.920
Yeah, and that is that's the burden of leadership.

00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:53.199
Um, and that I look, that's scary.

00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.800
Like, if I'm being really honest, I don't want that for myself.

00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:05.760
Like, I don't envy that burden, and so I'm really grateful that I'm marrying someone who has already stepped into that role.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.639
Hey, way to go.

00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.239
Like, like I said, it's it's a super challenge, engagement's hard.

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.159
I recommend short ones.

00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.119
Uh, but even if you go long, it way to go.

00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:24.480
It's it's it's it's it's an arduous task, put a date out there and and then kind of set your goal, set as sights on the goal to make decisions together ultimately.

00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:30.239
Hey, listen, if you've got any questions, you can text us at 737-231-0605.

00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:31.599
We would love to hear from you.

00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:35.599
Uh, one of our favorite things is to answer your questions about faith, culture, everything in between.

00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:39.280
Any other thoughts there, Nicole, on state of feminism?

00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:43.119
You know, just really grateful I got to talk to you about this.

00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:44.400
Yeah, it's super fun.

00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.719
Hey, we'll see you next time.

00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:50.559
Go ahead, push back some darkness, and have an awesome week of worship.