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265: Pastor Plek, Tony Nelson, and Nicole Troup address some common questions related to masterbation and sexual boundaries inside and outside of marriage.
Faith, Culture, and Everything in Between.
Scripture References:
Matthew 5:27, 1 Corinthians 7:2
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Speaker 1:
And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast. I am your host, pastor Plec, and with me in the studio is none other than Tony Nelson. Welcome back, hello, thanks for having me. Yeah, and Nicole, super Trooper Troop, she is with us in studio. Super excited to have you, hey hey. And this is a special podcast because I don't maybe. I think this is just the day we live in that I get a ton of questions revolving around sex. What's the line? What can I do, what can I not do? All of that. And so let's, we're gonna start. We got Nicole here, single woman, and Tony and I are married men with children, and so this is all. It's always gonna be a wild time as we talk about this, so let's just kind of walk it through what is the line when it comes to to sex and temptation and what is right, how about that? I'm gonna start with Tony and just kind of you've had conversations like this, probably within your community group, a lot, yeah, recently too. Okay, hit me. Yeah, what's the?
Speaker 2:
usual framing Well, okay. So this typically comes from married guys who are looking to stop looking at pornography. And then they wonder is it, is it wrong for me to masturbate if I'm thinking about my wife? Okay, good, that's the general question. Like they're, they're trying to exit, they're gonna put porn aside, but they're like, I still have the habit of masturbation.
Speaker 1:
So, I want to reorient it right.
Speaker 2:
Good good good. So before I hop into, like the boundaries, I think it's really important to understand that if people only approach resolving things in a mechanical way, like here's the line that I won't cross right. And they have no idea what scripture says. They have no idea what the heart behind what scripture is what God is trying to communicate to us. Then it gets real legalistic and then they don't understand how to handle new situations whenever they pop up.
Speaker 1:
Right, I think the big question and this, and this might frame it just for me personally is what am I is the thing that I'm doing or is the sexual activity that I'm engaging? Is it glorifying to God? Is this honoring him or is it glorifying me? I think that becomes ultimately the direction where you have to kind of kind of wrestle that down. Okay, so, back to Okay so.
Speaker 2:
I'll point to some scripture first and then, and then maybe we can talk about this. But the first and obvious one where we'll talk about scripture does clearly define sexual temptations as sinful. In Matthew five, when it's talking about lust, specifically, if you're lusting after women that are not your wife, right? Or I guess in your case, nicole, like after men who you are not married to. And that's this is Matthew five, 27, where it says you've heard, you've heard that it said you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that anyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away, for it is better for you to lose one of your members than your whole body and be thrown into hell. And so I'll just kind of stop there. But I think that this is very clearly where Jesus calling us to a higher standard when it comes to not just in the Old Testament, where I said just don't commit adultery, but he's saying it's not even just about the physical act, but it's about where the heart's disposition is. If my heart naturally leans toward having been satisfied by another woman, right, that's an adulterous thing, right, and? And so there there is that. But I also think that in first Corinthians seven it does talk about the sexuality, our sexuality belonging to our spouse, right? And so there's there's sort of that containment chamber is huge.
Speaker 1:
So what that means is do not deprive your spouse of sex, and I think in this, I think in our day and age that sounds very draconian and in like oh, that must mean that a woman must, like you know, give it up, or a man for that matter, give it up whenever the other person says as if. But there's this reality of like, it's mutual, like the submission of my body it's yours, my body is yours, and if you're going to honor the other person, then you're going to give that willingly and lovingly. However, I think what happens because we've had so much abuse in, that's been probably I don't think it's just recent, I think it's always happened. It's just been brought to the forefront, and so what can happen then is people kind of taint it with oh, that that's like marital rape and that is not what anyone's advocating. There's got to be this, this sense of like, a joy of coming together, and that's sort of the assumed part is that a husband and wife would want to come together, and in first Corinthians seven, like don't, don't neglect, like the only time you wouldn't want to be together is for a time of prayer, which usually, I don't think is the issue that couples are facing. No, yeah.
Speaker 2:
So if you're not familiar with the first Corinthians seven, it's his starts in verse two. But it says because of the temptation of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband, for the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's wild. Pretty clear, that it's I mean, really clear.
Speaker 4:
Well, and like it's, it's Equal in the sense like there's, no, there's no, like the man has more or the woman has more right to anything. It's like you were both equally over the others, which is like I think that's a place where people go like people go a little bit wrong, you know. They take maybe one of those verses out of context and they're like see, I have rights over you and it's like well, you ever I have rights.
Speaker 1:
I have rights over you too. That's where the stalemate happens.
Speaker 2:
But, but again, this is all talking about the context of marriage, right? I think the heart of this is really getting after that that when God institutes marriage, yeah, that should be a sacred and protected yes at all costs. And so when you're not married, as an example, lust falls into more of the sexual morality Clause. Right, because you have no spouse to attribute your sexual desires toward. Right. So in that case that's got to be brought under submission of Christ because you don't yet have a spouse to Orient that yeah.
Speaker 1:
So one of the things that you know, I don't, you're obviously, if I feel, familiar Jordan Peterson. Sure, he did a whole series on exodus which which is awesome, and in this series, dennis Prager and you know Dennis very familiar with this. So, dennis, Prager goes hey listen, jews don't have the same Standard of purity that you Christians do, right? And he pointed to like the thing in Matthew, if you lust after a woman in your own heart or that's, that is not adultery. And I was like Dennis Prager, like I man love a lot of the stuff you do, but you are so wrong on this issue, because the Bible clearly says don't covet, don't covet and then specifically don't covet your neighbor's wife, like that's in Deuteronomy, that's in exodus. It's like this is not like a. I thought that was wild, me too, that he would say that. And either he's Illiterate to the biblical thing, but to the biblical thing, but he's biblically illiterate, or Like which I think might be the case here. I wish I thought was just so strange for such a scholar to not see don't covet your neighbor's wife as Like Lusting yeah, so I had to go follow a couple more things that he directly talked about.
Speaker 2:
Yes, because there was such backlash over this particular topic. Are you familiar with this? Yeah, okay, and so he. He goes on to say that you know, jews have the Sin is a physical thing that you're doing, with the exception of having Having idols of the heart, right, but outside of that, all the other sins that they've got are related to physical action, and he attributes the sexual immorality in that same capacity. But he does go on to eventually say, not in that series, but at a different interview where he's challenged on this, where he says that you know pornography is wrong, but he would rather a man watch pornography than to actually go commit adultery, which is is a wild thing, sure, but you know I look at this and I go, yeah, but that I get the, I Get that. Adultery is a literal ripping of the family part.
Speaker 4:
There's got there's immediate visceral consequences to adultery, whereas pornography tends to be less less overt, like the consequences of watching pornography, or, yeah, more subtle, more like drawn out over time, right, if it had an immediate ripping and rending of the family, it would be far less consumed.
Speaker 2:
But because it is done in private and because there's not an immediate Backlash and fallout, it's far more easy for men to fall into that right. Pray to it, yeah, yeah, so that does become a challenge.
Speaker 1:
I just thought it was weird. I mean, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. Yes, to me that is about as explicit, fair enough, like as like I don't think he's meaning like I want her to, you know, make dinner for me. I think you know clearly, yeah, you shot, cover your neighbor's house. You should not cover your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox. Now I don't think he's saying you shouldn't want to have sex with those, although you could include that, because that's In in the same vein, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. I think it's all inclusive there, which is what Jesus's point is. Anyway, I just thought that was an interesting thing how he kind of went there.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so then, if that's, if that's the direction you go with, with lust being a covetousness thing, right, which I would I would Certainly say that they're, they're intermingled. Yeah, if that's the case, then what would you say to a man who says I'm trying to stop pornography, right? Is it wrong to masturbate if I'm thinking about my spouse?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I see this is where All is permission permissible. First Corinthians 1023 all is permissible but not always beneficial. I think it does. She agree to that? Sure, if she agrees to it, it's like part of it. I just don't want to create a. I think for me the struggle is I don't want to create a Biblical boundary where the Bible isn't specific on it, right, and the principle you would say is what is better, masturbation or sex? And you'd say clearly sex because it's doing a lot of things. In fact, there's the harmful aspect of masturbation is is there's a? There's a couple chemicals released in your brain. One is a dopamine like is you know your video game, like you want to go and do it again, but that dopamine. And then there's oxytocin, or also knows the hugging hormone. And when you don't have sex with your wife, then you're, you're not Gluing yourselves together like it, although mentally you you may be, you are not physically, and I think that's a super important part of it. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to create a like if a husband's deployed in combat and they're having, like you know, phone conversation which goes intimate. I I Don't want to get in the way of that. If there's a business trip, I'd rather him have some sort of, and so I think that goes couple by couple, specifically that they need to talk about that and and have communication, because His body is not his own and so if she's not okay with that, she would say that I'm not okay with that and that makes me feel less than or whatever, and that in another place is you also want to say like Is this? It might be permissible, but is it beneficial? And so it might be, it might be beneficial, could be. I think that's a, I think this is the line that again, this goes into in in each marriage is where, like the open communication it becomes super important because I don't want you to take a blank Check from me here saying like, oh well, he said I could, so therefore I can't. And I think what God says is Using your community. All is permissible, but not all is beneficial, and I think this is a probably a good spot for that, because I think there's a lot of um what's the right word for that gray area in this? Gray area and there's a lot of drawback or negative that that could come from of that sort of heart.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and this is why I was mentioning in the very front end of this that if somebody only focused on do not masturbate, right, you miss a lot of the what happens in a lot of the Spots that you're gonna encounter where you had never thought about right to handle things and so you don't have a biblical framework for solving problems. Mm-hmm. It can get really legalistic and you know when it when you're talking about Masturbation and pornography or anything like that. One of the biggest challenges that I've seen in just my own life, that I had to unwork Back in the day, was when, when you watch pornography, they tend to be very young women. Mm-hmm right and so your brain gets trained right to naturally go toward young right all the time. and as your wife ages, can't compete with that Mm-hmm can't compete with that, whereas when you keep your brain trained on having sex with your wife, that becomes an ever-changing Stage with her, so she always remains beautiful, absolutely always, and that and God design your brain that way, which is it's?
Speaker 1:
incredible. I'll to think about that. He's always Reprogramming your brain on the current version of your wife, which then this gets into having sex with the lights on. We won't need to go into that, but there is a reality that the visual stimulation for a man comes what you, the oxytocin release and the dopamine release becomes a super important part.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and here's one of the things that I've had. When I had the conversation with some of the guys about this, I said look, if you, your wife's okay with this and you two are able to find a healthy way to go, do this. My caution to you would be If you begin to fantasize mm-hmm about your wife and you now have turned the fantasy into this idealistic thing Like a better version of your wife, a better version of her, then that's harmful and you should avoid that. Yeah, because now you're just feeding into the pride of what you want and not actually Exactly Resolving things in a way that is just need release.
Speaker 1:
There's a couple of Bible verses that come to mind Everything that doesn't come from faith is sin. So if, again, if you're not operating to the glory of God in Christ and it's like, and if you're feeling some sort of way about it this goes back to my arguments on Halloween, or even Christmas, like I feel a sense of there's darkness here Then I'd say don't do it. Only be fully convinced of something that's honoring God. How about this? I won't be mastered by anything. Don't go into something that might enslave you, even mentally. True, your freedom can enslave you. Okay, Give it to me what do you mean Right?
Speaker 2:
Well, I mean thinking this isn't wrong because I'm not looking at other women, so I've got complete freedom over this. You go down some of these mental pathways and it can become a new master. That you're not serving Nice Right, so now enslave to the very fact that you have the freedom to go do something like that, and yet it becomes the new master over you.
Speaker 1:
Good. And also another part of the fruit of the spirit is self-control, yeah, and so love, joy, peace, patience, kind of going to faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law, and I think part of that is, if you don't have the self-control, or maybe it's too weird for you to talk about it with your wife, this goes into another or your I'll say even husband, right, it can go both ways, then that's problematic. So, yeah, don't gratify the desires of the flesh, for the flesh desires was contrary to the spirit and the spirit was contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other. So you do whatever you want. So self-denial, not self-gratification. But it could be like again this is where I just want to put a line on it, because who knows what kind of health situation the woman may have and she wants to be intimate with her husband, but she can't because of whatever reason I think that there's. Just I don't want to put a hard line on that, yeah, so talk to me, nicole, as a woman. Is pornography, is that a and I? Because usually with men we're like this is a man's thing, but from what I'm understanding, this is not purely a men's issue? No, it's absolutely not. So in the realm of this, how do you like with women that you talk to and ministry with, how do you help them Like and I'm not sure if you're having a conversation with female wives about like masturbating to their husband, but like, how do you help people see the reality of that? First pornography and then just, I don't know if this is something. I don't know what women talk about in this terms. Is that a subject that even comes up, like masturbation? Is that even a subject?
Speaker 4:
Yeah, I mean I have several friends who've engaged in it at some point or have been tempted by it at other points. I mean I've been tempted by it. I have struggles with women fantasize Probably not in the same way men do. No, it's definitely not in the same way, but like you know, I mean women watch porn also, but more commonly like it's books.
Speaker 1:
Oh, okay, like Daniel Steele, novels yes or like really steamy rom-coms.
Speaker 4:
Right and like you get those images in your head and then you kind of just continue to develop a fantasy about that yeah. And there are lots of women that struggle with that, and I would argue that that is the, a female equivalent of watching porn. So like, if you're not watching porn, like anything that isn't rooted in reality is going to harm you and anything that you're thinking about in your head isn't rooted in reality and it's doing some kind of damage. So what is the?
Speaker 1:
I know this might be overly simplifying, but what's the solution and I'm going to talk about just less specifically because I think sometimes I'm just to single people the answer is just get married. How have we seen that play?
Speaker 4:
out. I don't agree with that. All right, that's bad all. What do you think? What do you?
Speaker 1:
think, just get married, tony.
Speaker 2:
Okay. I think that that can temporarily resolve some things Right. So again it kind of comes back to there's a mechanical piece to disciplining the body and interactions right, having self-control. There is that mechanical side of things, but then there's also the heart side of things. There does need to be a reorienting of the heart back toward a place of righteous living, not toward a self-gratifying stance which ultimately, is what draws men or women into pornography. I need to be satisfied, and my needs are now preeminent.
Speaker 1:
And so, right now, so if a person is struggling with pornography, is the answer just get married. Is that gonna work for them? No, probably not. Why not?
Speaker 4:
Because you're still gonna be tempted by pornography even if you're married Right and I think that's more of the. Marriage doesn't solve problems.
Speaker 1:
It only amplifies, it exacerbates them yeah.
Speaker 4:
So if you're struggling with watching porn, if you're struggling, with let's get married.
Speaker 1:
It's gonna solve it all.
Speaker 4:
No, getting married is not gonna solve it all. I would actually challenge those people to first heal from whatever it is that is driving them towards this thing and not get married until they feel like they're in a healthier place.
Speaker 1:
Right, I think if you're gonna think that solving your pornography issue is I now have somebody to have sex with, that's gonna be problematic, right. I think we could all go. That's a bad idea.
Speaker 4:
Well, it's like. It's not only like the amount of damage that that will do to you as a person, but also to your spouse.
Speaker 1:
Like Especially if you bring that into the marriage.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, especially if you bring that into the marriage. It's just like I, you know, I've heard that from so many women and I can only imagine. Like I know that, I know that it can go the other way also, like if a man doesn't feel like desired by his wife, like that can be really harmful.
Speaker 2:
So Absolutely can. Yeah, but we know this anecdotally that hookup culture has proven that just because you physically have sex does not remove a lustful heart. Right, right. It amplifies it.
Speaker 1:
Oh yeah, and I think the reality of like, non-covenantal sex and I'm not gonna like this isn't this goes into Now, we're in my theory, but I think this is true Non-covenantal sex, which is transactional, is very appealing because it's you are performing for me and I am performing for you, and if any moment my performance doesn't measure up, then the other person has the right to get out. And we're talking about sex, the most intimate thing you possibly it's like saying the most intimate thing, and what's wild about it is that you're then sort of like, then you sort of expect that when sex it married, sex would be the same performance, conditioned sex. Yes, and it's just not Because there is no Now in a covenantal Christian relationship. Maybe in a non-Christian relationship it's still like I'm performing because I have to know they could leave at any time. But there is something that shifts. And so if you go from a transactional relationship to a covenantal one because you're like I want to do this right, I want to get married and make a Christian, be prepared that the sex is not going to be the same and it's going to be very different and it's not going. You're going to have the thrill will not be the same, because you're not seeing like Is this pleasing to this person and are they going to stay with me? I think that part is going.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, okay. So I had conversation with guys where they were. They're upset that their wife doesn't want to engage all the time.
Speaker 1:
Right.
Speaker 2:
But she's willing, right. And so she might say something like, okay, I'm here, have at it. And he's like, well, I don't want to now because, like, you're not engaged, right, you know what, and I'm like you, moron, you don't understand. She is giving you your conjugal rights so that you are not tempted to go somewhere else, right. And so to your point. I think that when you're dating or you're having sex outside of the confines of marriage, it's always like going out to a nice dinner, right. Whereas when you're in marriage, it's like you know what Fast food is good sometimes, right. Not everything needs to be a three course meal. That's right. And so you got to understand that like yeah, I put sex in three categories.
Speaker 3:
You got fast food, home cooked meal and seven course dinner, and I think there are times for this is so interesting.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, there's times for each.
Speaker 2:
But you know what? But think about this. It's okay, I'm going to use the same eating metaphor Better to eat fast food at home than to go to HEB hungry, looking at other women.
Speaker 1:
Nice Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Right. I mean, ultimately, this is some of the stuff that triggers with guys. Is they're like, especially now that yoga pants are a thing which is basically just. I mean, I'm just saying it's pretty darn close to nudity, it's pretty darn close. Let me put it to you this way If you put a quarter in your pocket and I can tell whether it's heads or tails probably not appropriate. Oh wow, that's a good measure of that, yeah, and so it's just, it's a challenge because it's like, okay, you can see everything Right, that stuff's not hiding anything. I know it's comfy, but, like for men, it's a real stimulant. And so for a lot of these guys that are struggling with this, I'm like you need to understand if your wife is willing to help you in this way, take the help. Yeah, like you don't need to fight this battle on your own Right, I agree, yeah, yoga pants Thoughts.
Speaker 4:
I wear them. I didn't think it was a problem.
Speaker 2:
I know you don't, but you also aren't necessarily visually stimulated. No, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, I mean I don't know that perspective, I've never. I mean I've heard, I've heard of that, like I've heard of my friends saying that men have said to them you know, but no guy has ever said that so directly. Yeah, In a conversation with me that I've, you know, I've just been able to kind of like, oh sure maybe yeah.
Speaker 2:
I mean, dressing modestly is a moving scale, right, yeah, with culture. But you know, it's one of those that I've even had to have conversations with ladies in our small group around like, okay, I need you to understand, dress a little more modestly. Yeah, there are men who struggle with lust a lot in this community group or in you know this setting, yep. And so do they need to control themselves. You bet this is their sin. They must, they must submit this to Christ 100%. But a big part of living within a Christian community is also going. Okay, how do I bear your burden? Yeah, Absolutely. And I'm going to be on the side of like, if, if a woman can understand if I'm going to be in a community, if I can do something to help you not fall prey to this, then that's a great thing. Like that's not just my wife's responsibility. Yeah, and that's one of the most loving things that you could do for the memory of you.
Speaker 4:
Absolutely. I will even say that that is something that I try to do in dating also. Like that's great. I'm very conscious of what I wear when I go on a date. Obviously I want to look nice, yep. And I always ask myself like is this, am I? Am I showing too much? You know, am I is this appropriate, especially the more I get to know someone and, like I, most men have some kind of struggle with less, to varying degrees.
Speaker 1:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:
Right. And so you know, especially if I know that the guy that I'm going on a date with has is having a especially hard time, Like I will, I will do all the things and it's out, it's out of love. Like it's out of love for another person, that you do that, you know, like if you're girlfriend, like if you're. You know, if one of my girlfriends is struggling with, is struggling with lust, like we're not going to go watch a romcom together we're not. You know, I'm going to hold her accountable to not read things, or whatever you know I'm. We're not going to go to places where you might see guys shirtless or something Um and so like. If I would do that for one of my girlfriends, I'm going to do the same for the men in my life also.
Speaker 2:
That's great. I love that perspective. Yeah, it's not as common as I would hope to. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:
And I think and I just I think partly one, I think sometimes women have it's your deal, get over it. And it is true.
Speaker 2:
It is true, it is very much true.
Speaker 4:
But at the same time, if you love someone, then you're going to have to it's such a prideful thing to say, and your preferences are more important than your right to say we live in such a hyper sexualized culture that these guys in, like the men in this church, the men who are, like, actively trying to do better, are getting hit with this left and right everywhere they go.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, not just this church.
Speaker 4:
Like you cannot turn on the TV without some kind of stimulation, you can't drive down the road without some kind of stimulation. So if there are one or two places that they can go every week, where they know that I'm not going to have to worry about this as much, the temptation isn't going to be as strong Like what a relief that would be for them for those men that are struggling with that, like they have a safe haven that they can come to. And the same way that a woman coming into a church setting knows that she's not going to be abused, you know that knows that she's not going to be in danger, like, I feel safe here. That's what that is, and it's the same way with men. It looks very different because men are very different, but it's the same thing. We want them to feel safe and loved and cared for when they're here.
Speaker 1:
At the same time, I think I'd say I'm not going to enforce a dress code Like oh, your shorts are too short because you want people to be able to come as they are. At the same time, this is where you have the. This is where the conversation of like especially. I think that there's a like hey, random person, let me tell you how to dress versus a relationship person I have with you. Let me help you know what's going on, because I know you care about me and I care about you and I think that's I think in the past and this this is where you know this, this straw man, I think in the past it's either gone wear whatever you know, and then that's problematic, and then, on the flip side, it's been draconian on, like hey, floor length dresses is all that you can wear, and then it prevents the place of being like a place for people who aren't. Um, we're at a different spot in life.
Speaker 2:
Yeah Well, I mean, it's also presumes that just because you dress in a modest way, that men will not still lust, right yeah, which I mean you could wear burlap sack and a guy would still figure out a way to lust, if that was like the the state of his heart right. And so there is an element of this. That is like that is 100% his sin, that he has to own regardless of what you wear. But if there is a way for you to make it easier for him to not mentally undress, then that should be aimed for, right Brother.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:
This is all coming back to the masturbation and fantasies kind of yeah yeah, yeah, don't create fantasies for people.
Speaker 1:
If possible, if possible.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
And I think that the biggest part of that is if you, if you're not thinking that way. This is part where I'm now trying to speak for a woman. It might be impossible, but if you're not thinking that direction, maybe that's easier. Like, I'm not making myself into a sex object. I'm, you know, at the same time, you want to kind of to your point. I want to be nice, presentable, all those kind of things, but you're not creating a. I don't know you. You could be wearing a sweater and still come off with a vibe. Does that make sense? Yeah, and and I'm not saying we need to have everyone kind of go going around with an angry face or anything, but there there is a reality that, to your point, it's not just what you wear, it's the way you come off, which can be, you know, problematic.
Speaker 2:
Anyway, yeah, we went.
Speaker 1:
I mean, we kind of full circle on this one. Yeah, hey, listen, if you got any questions, make sure you text at 737-231-0605. Love to answer your question. We've talked about sex gazillions of times, whether it's about heterosexuality, homosexuality, trans, we've kind of gone the entire gamut. So it's not like we're afraid to touch that. So let us, let us know what you think, Send us a text at 737-231-0605 or go to pastorplechcom. We'd love to hear from you. And hey, thanks for watching, listening and from our house of yours. Have a awesome, good and good portion.
