Aug. 14, 2025

Faith in Real Life

Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here. In today's episode we explore the dangers of neglecting our salvation and how to navigate cultural tensions as Christians in today's complex world. • How spiritual and material worlds converge in our daily lives • When we neglect our salvation, we miss seeing God at work around us • The challenge of navigating the Ten Commandments in society • The difference between accepting Jesus and truly following Him • Addres...

Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here.

In today's episode we explore the dangers of neglecting our salvation and how to navigate cultural tensions as Christians in today's complex world.

• How spiritual and material worlds converge in our daily lives
• When we neglect our salvation, we miss seeing God at work around us
• The challenge of navigating the Ten Commandments in society
• The difference between accepting Jesus and truly following Him
• Addressing false converts in the church
• Understanding the biblical promise of a new heaven and new earth
• Why Christians believe in physical resurrection, not just spiritual existence
• How to disagree in love on secondary theological issues

Ready to join the conversation? Send your questions to 737-231-0605!

Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.

Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving

Support the show

00:05 - Sunday Sermon Recap

05:35 - Neglecting Our Salvation

09:02 - Ten Commandments in the Classroom

22:26 - False Converts in the Church

30:37 - New Heaven and New Earth

39:04 - Closing Thoughts

WEBVTT

00:00:05.610 --> 00:00:08.015
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.

00:00:08.015 --> 00:00:20.707
I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me in studios none other than pastor holland, greg hello and also john milton hello, it's me yeah, it is john, so I want to do a quick couple things today on the podcast.

00:00:20.847 --> 00:00:24.986
One is apologize for my voice but I think you guys can hang with me, I can hang, hang with you.

00:00:24.986 --> 00:00:28.111
But I want to recap the sermon from Sunday.

00:00:28.111 --> 00:00:36.552
We talked Hebrews 2, the supremacy, the superiority of our salvation in Jesus and we should not neglect it.

00:00:36.552 --> 00:00:43.732
And I kind of start off with, like the story of my old vintage car that I drove in high school and it broke down all the time.

00:00:43.732 --> 00:00:48.859
Old vintage car that I drove in high school and it broke down all the time partly because I did dumb things like put sand in the engine by accident.

00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:51.406
And that never goes well for anyone.

00:00:51.406 --> 00:00:52.350
In fact, it breaks down.

00:00:52.350 --> 00:01:03.926
I made the comparison, though, if we don't maintain not that we have to work to maintain our salvation, but if we don't invest in our salvation, if we don't invest in it, then we don't get the benefit of it.

00:01:03.926 --> 00:01:11.725
In fact, our lives might break down, and that might be what God wants exactly to happen.

00:01:11.725 --> 00:01:30.475
And I kind of made the analogy of like my dad worked with me for a long time to clean out, to rebuild the entire engine after I ruined it, and what Jesus wants to do is not just sit there and go well, well, well and wag his finger at us, but to work with us to restore us to that joy of our salvation.

00:01:30.475 --> 00:01:32.299
And so that's kind of where I went.

00:01:32.299 --> 00:01:52.983
So anything that kind of stuck out to you from that, as I talked about Jesus salvation is through Jesus' incarnation, exaltation, Jesus is there was a warning against neglecting the superior salvation and then Jesus is the merciful high priest.

00:01:53.671 --> 00:02:11.323
Anything that stuck out to you from Sunday yeah, for sure that the notion of cultivating and and nurturing the salvation is way more meaningful than what culture wants us to do right, which is oh, did you go to church?

00:02:11.323 --> 00:02:12.145
Did you get saved?

00:02:12.145 --> 00:02:13.950
Box checked.

00:02:13.950 --> 00:02:16.006
No more church needed.

00:02:16.006 --> 00:02:25.461
And that, thankfully, like the church reinforces and the Bible, of course, reinforces often like you got to keep coming, you're going to forget Right, right reinforces.

00:02:25.461 --> 00:02:27.025
Often like, uh, you got to keep coming, you're going to forget right.

00:02:27.025 --> 00:02:27.466
Right, you're gonna.

00:02:27.466 --> 00:02:33.782
You're gonna remember that your salvation is in a closet in the attic, covered in two boxes of shoes, and that's where it belongs.

00:02:33.962 --> 00:02:43.950
no, right, like it doesn't yeah, so for you, john, as a fairly new Christian, came to Christ at 35.

00:02:43.950 --> 00:02:53.967
And so now, how have you seen the like, how like do you ever find yourself neglecting your salvation?

00:02:53.967 --> 00:02:56.343
Or is that something that for you, as a new Christian, you're still on fire?

00:02:56.343 --> 00:02:58.189
Or has there been periods of up and down?

00:02:58.900 --> 00:02:59.925
Periods of up and down, for sure.

00:02:59.925 --> 00:03:06.087
The really good part is when you're here regularly and you're going to groups regularly, you'll.

00:03:06.087 --> 00:03:07.923
This isn't good, right.

00:03:07.923 --> 00:03:09.501
You'll see men who fall away.

00:03:09.501 --> 00:03:15.147
You'll see men who stop showing up and if you're lucky, they come back.

00:03:15.147 --> 00:03:17.983
Sorry, if God's willing, they come back and they go.

00:03:17.983 --> 00:03:22.324
Oh man, I've been missing out and I get to.

00:03:22.324 --> 00:03:28.919
I get to see the life ebb and flow of someone who didn't need any more God and then realize that was a foolish thing.

00:03:28.939 --> 00:03:29.883
Yeah, tell me how you've seen that.

00:03:29.883 --> 00:03:33.360
Tell me how you've seen the progression of someone follow Jesus and then fall off the planet.

00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:58.504
Sure, yeah, um, without dropping names, it was a fellow who came to church, uh, was was really eager to to put on the body and then, uh, then disappeared for nine months or not nine months, about nine weeks, I think and then, without any biblical structure, he came back letting us know like, hey, he's getting in fights with the girlfriend all the time, he's getting in a fight with the live-in son at the time.

00:03:58.504 --> 00:04:04.743
And then he had a crisis and a friend told him, like you should go to God in crisis.

00:04:04.743 --> 00:04:06.430
It was following basically a breakup.

00:04:06.430 --> 00:04:13.960
And he comes to the group and sees me glowing which I don't know that I'm doing that because I'm busy being a Christian.

00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:15.186
She got a glory all over you.

00:04:15.186 --> 00:04:19.129
But he says, oh man, that guy's got something.

00:04:19.129 --> 00:04:21.125
I'm like, yeah, you should stay.

00:04:21.125 --> 00:04:22.706
I don't think I have anything, but you should stay.

00:04:22.706 --> 00:04:25.024
It's weird to see that.

00:04:25.660 --> 00:04:41.850
Yeah it is weird and it's exciting to see God on the move, and I think what happens and maybe and Han, you can speak this as well is what happens for Christians, is we don't see God doing anything, and I know that sounds like almost blasphemous.

00:04:41.850 --> 00:04:43.384
We don't see it.

00:04:43.384 --> 00:04:55.483
So, therefore, christianity becomes stagnant, it becomes boring, it becomes something that is put in my attic somewhere and I'll pull it out whenever the crisis comes and I need to be a prepper.

00:04:55.483 --> 00:04:58.572
Tell me how you've sort of seen that as well.

00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:26.545
Yeah, I think over the years of starting and I became a Christian in college and you know, dealt with this with friends who grew up in church and expressed similar things and then, as I kind of went into ministry and you know, you pastor people who say similar types of things of just like I don't see how Christianity really intersects with my real life or I don't see God really doing anything special.

00:05:26.545 --> 00:05:30.456
And the reality is you know God's at work and everything that.

00:05:30.456 --> 00:05:31.821
You know, everything we do.

00:05:31.821 --> 00:05:40.386
We sang a song this morning 10,000 reasons, um, you know, like thinking about, uh, 10,000 reasons that we have to bless God.

00:05:40.386 --> 00:05:47.769
And reality is that every time you, you think of something like, okay, wow, god did this, there's 10,000 other things he did that you're not even aware of.

00:05:47.788 --> 00:05:52.867
He's always working, um, and the question is whether or not we're aware of it.

00:05:52.867 --> 00:06:01.283
And the more that you seek God, the more that you spend time with him, I think, the more of a sense of awareness you get of how he is working, even in the mundane things I think of.

00:06:01.283 --> 00:06:11.235
When Jacob woke up from his dream, you know, it says that he realized God was in that place and he became aware that God was in that place.

00:06:11.235 --> 00:06:32.139
And that happens, I think, if you don't nurture your salvation through gratitude, through praying to God, through reading his word, through gathering with other believers, if you neglect it, then, yeah, you start to kind of forget and lose a sense of awareness of how God is moving all around you.

00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:33.019
Yeah, can.

00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:40.829
I just say I think part of what contributed to this is a false belief that this is a just a material world.

00:06:40.829 --> 00:06:41.572
Here's what I mean by that.

00:06:41.572 --> 00:06:51.389
Um, when I was young and I was afraid of the dark, my mom would say there's nothing to be afraid of, there's nothing there.

00:06:51.389 --> 00:07:11.596
She came from a materialist worldview and I was scared of I don't know Freddy or whatever dark evil thing was there, and it was very helpful for a small child to not believe in anything that was spiritual but also prevented an understanding that the material and spiritual world converge all the time.

00:07:11.596 --> 00:07:25.603
And I think in latter days we kind of went to it's not all material, it's kind of like there is no, it's all ethereal, it's all spiritual.

00:07:25.603 --> 00:07:27.459
And there is no, it's all ethereal, it's all spiritual and there is no right or wrong.

00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:31.408
I think that's the other flip-flop of materialism to complete spiritualism.

00:07:31.870 --> 00:07:43.029
And spiritualism is whatever you want it to be and what I love about God and hopefully I can land the plan where I'm going with this but he is material, that's what Jesus is, has a body and yet he's fully spirit.

00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:46.326
That's what he brings those two together and then you start to interact.

00:07:46.420 --> 00:08:24.863
We are interacting in a body, material world, but the spiritual is always happening and I think if we're asking Jesus to operate through us, he is going to provide opportunities for kingdom to present itself, the spiritual and material to manifest in one, and that's where the prayers are answered, that's where kingdom comes, that's where his will is done on earth as is in heaven, and I think that's part of our salvation that we neglect that we have access to the God of all creation that we can have a relationship with in the here and now, that can interact with material things from a spiritual perspective and transform life.

00:08:24.863 --> 00:08:39.710
Anyway, I get excited about that because I think that's the neglected part, where we don't like to talk about demons and devils and angels, um, because, especially in an academic or a intellectual setting, it makes you look like a fool.

00:08:39.710 --> 00:08:47.446
But I think the true foolish thing is to say that stuff isn't happening, that's not going on and there isn't a way to interact with the God of the ages today.

00:08:48.128 --> 00:08:49.230
Yeah, amen, yeah.

00:08:49.230 --> 00:08:55.172
Screw tape letters is a good example of how you should not ignore everything the devil will do to trick you.

00:08:55.493 --> 00:08:56.475
Exactly All right.

00:08:56.475 --> 00:09:02.105
So, speaking of that, let's talk about how the spiritual and material kind of connect.

00:09:02.105 --> 00:09:16.696
We got a question from one of our faithful listeners and this person says I'm struggling as a teacher on how to respond when I hear people complain about the Ten Commandments being posted in the classroom.

00:09:16.696 --> 00:09:18.397
I agree wholeheartedly.

00:09:18.397 --> 00:09:26.102
The schools need the content of the Ten Commandments, but I also hate to see teachers complaining and disrespecting and refusing to put them up.

00:09:28.345 --> 00:09:30.808
How do I respond to their frustration.

00:09:30.808 --> 00:09:33.933
It's a good question, it's a great question, I think so.

00:09:33.933 --> 00:09:49.291
Just the initial thought for me is like I think people assume that you can somehow have a kind of neutral space that, um, you don't have one religion or one set of morals.

00:09:49.291 --> 00:09:51.696
It's just kind of a neutral, secular space.

00:09:51.696 --> 00:10:06.650
And that's how America should be, it's how the classroom and government should be, and so to put the 10 commandments in a classroom is like oh, you're preferring your religion over other people and you're adding your morals here.

00:10:06.650 --> 00:10:08.996
We just need to have a neutral space, right?

00:10:08.996 --> 00:10:12.011
I think that's kind of like the prevailing opposition to it.

00:10:12.032 --> 00:10:19.789
Right now the cultural thought is I, I mean, and for many years I'd say christians probably were in this space.

00:10:19.789 --> 00:10:31.544
But as things got sort of crazier with like we didn't even know what gender was, uh, we sort of said we need to figure out what is a baseline.

00:10:31.544 --> 00:10:39.600
And so now christians in politics have said I want to put the Ten Commandments in every classroom as a moral.

00:10:40.326 --> 00:10:42.129
And this is not a new idea.

00:10:42.129 --> 00:10:52.216
This is like what people said when America was founded and was a norm for a long time, and the reality is though it's a lie that neutral spaces exist.

00:10:52.216 --> 00:10:53.346
There's no such thing.

00:10:53.346 --> 00:11:00.308
Every society is built on some kind of shared moral framework.

00:11:00.308 --> 00:11:03.581
It's not whether or not there's a moral framework.

00:11:03.581 --> 00:11:12.831
The question is which moral framework, and if it's going to be an atheistic, secular moral framework, then it's just whatever who's in power, whatever they decide is right or wrong.

00:11:13.633 --> 00:11:14.514
And so what should we?

00:11:14.514 --> 00:11:17.532
So you know, to answer the question, what do I do when people are frustrated?

00:11:17.532 --> 00:11:20.708
Uh, man, it's going to be some tough conversations.

00:11:20.708 --> 00:11:35.414
You're going to need a lot of patience and self-control, but if you can, slowly and gently and lovingly um, you can still be gentle and bold at the same time, I think but kind of move things in the direction of helping people understand there's no such thing as a neutral space.

00:11:35.414 --> 00:11:38.159
Yeah, um, we do need to have morals here.

00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:39.422
We, we do need to be able to.

00:11:39.422 --> 00:11:45.842
You know, schools originally existed to teach virtue, right, um, not just you know information and facts.

00:11:45.863 --> 00:11:46.384
I want to explain.

00:11:46.384 --> 00:11:47.908
There's no neutral space.

00:11:47.908 --> 00:11:53.284
In other words, laws government, if you want to are inherently moral.

00:11:53.284 --> 00:11:55.658
They are inherently moral.

00:11:55.658 --> 00:11:57.004
It's just whose morals are they?

00:11:57.004 --> 00:12:06.173
So when people say stop legislating morality, it is impossible because all legislation is a form of morality.

00:12:06.173 --> 00:12:08.029
So let's get into that.

00:12:08.664 --> 00:12:19.346
And the Ten Commandments are the summary of God's moral law and therefore the very good thing to have that be a shared morality for schools.

00:12:19.466 --> 00:12:28.472
So when somebody says hey, listen, I'm Muslim, why are you putting on your Ten Commandments, which probably Muslims wouldn't have that much issue with?

00:12:28.472 --> 00:12:29.485
But how about I'm atheist?

00:12:29.485 --> 00:12:32.030
Why are you putting these Ten Commandments on me?

00:12:32.030 --> 00:12:34.095
I don't believe in God.

00:12:34.095 --> 00:12:46.235
So the commandment number one I am violating right now and I don't care, and I will put up graven images all over the place and I will take the Lord's name in vain because I can.

00:12:46.235 --> 00:12:57.879
How do we respond to that in a gentle but loving way that says hey, the content of this isn't actually what your problem is.

00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:01.174
Your problem is is you want to be God?

00:13:01.174 --> 00:13:02.910
Is that fair?

00:13:02.910 --> 00:13:04.918
Do you have something, john?

00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:07.693
That's a tactic to take.

00:13:07.693 --> 00:13:09.571
It can't begin and end with that.

00:13:09.571 --> 00:13:14.451
It would have to probably begin with hey, we should get lunch, and I want to know all about where that's coming from.

00:13:14.793 --> 00:13:22.111
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean a lot of times when people came to Jesus with their frustrations, he didn't just answer their questions, he asked his own questions.

00:13:22.111 --> 00:13:25.875
Right, you know, and helped kind of dig up, take me through that.

00:13:25.945 --> 00:13:30.947
So if I said to you I'm like this is ridiculous, I mean, stop putting your religion on me.

00:13:30.947 --> 00:13:34.250
And then you take me to lunch, I'm like, okay, let me have it.

00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:36.712
Okay, christian nationalist, tell me why?

00:13:36.712 --> 00:13:44.760
Um, I should be on board with your Christian nationalism and you want to put your impose your religion in my classroom?

00:13:45.341 --> 00:13:48.485
Yeah, you can start with man, tell me why.

00:13:48.485 --> 00:13:49.547
Why does that frustrate you?

00:13:49.547 --> 00:13:50.267
Why, you know?

00:13:50.267 --> 00:13:52.710
Why is this something that you are so angry about?

00:13:52.750 --> 00:14:13.985
and I would say because I don't want to be forced to believe something that I don't believe, because part of what's being american is freedom of religion and I, or in my case, freedom from religion there you go, a lot of go, go a lot of different directions with this one way you can go, okay, hey, um, you know there might be 10 different religions, you know that.

00:14:14.004 --> 00:14:15.107
Come into this classroom.

00:14:15.107 --> 00:14:20.018
Um, there's got to be some agreed upon right and wrong to have order, to have peace.

00:14:20.018 --> 00:14:24.496
There's got to be a code of conduct if we're going to have an orderly, you know classroom in here.

00:14:24.496 --> 00:14:28.495
So whose code of conduct do you think should be in charge?

00:14:29.004 --> 00:14:32.010
Yeah, and that's where I'm like well, why don't we?

00:14:32.010 --> 00:14:35.417
We could just take some of a little bit of everybody.

00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.274
Yeah, and then you, okay, let's, let's, um, tease that out.

00:14:39.274 --> 00:14:40.671
What would that look like?

00:14:40.671 --> 00:14:52.101
And I think, when you can ask questions, reality is um, if you start walking down that path, very quickly it devolves into like wait a second, this is impossible to do.

00:14:52.101 --> 00:14:52.725
It is impossible.

00:14:52.725 --> 00:14:58.597
It's impossible to do without excluding someone, um, or without preferring one set of values over another.

00:14:58.597 --> 00:15:02.495
At the end of the day, if you're going to have a code of conduct, then this is what a culture is.

00:15:02.495 --> 00:15:03.931
This is how you get values.

00:15:03.931 --> 00:15:08.817
This is how you get someone is going to decide these things are okay and these things are not.

00:15:08.817 --> 00:15:10.826
We have blasphemy laws right now.

00:15:10.826 --> 00:15:13.346
They're just not.

00:15:13.346 --> 00:15:16.769
You can say certain things and there are some things that, if you say, you'll get canceled.

00:15:16.788 --> 00:15:23.532
Like fire in theater, or like if you make a racist comment or whatever, which is probably a good thing to get canceled over.

00:15:23.672 --> 00:15:27.114
Yeah, there are things that if you say this, people are going to go.

00:15:27.114 --> 00:15:30.076
You know we'll never give you a job here, Right.

00:15:30.096 --> 00:15:30.875
Something like that Right.

00:15:30.916 --> 00:15:34.298
So you know some form, not you know technical blasphemy laws, but you know what I mean.

00:15:34.298 --> 00:15:38.840
Yeah, no matter what you're going to have to decide, these things are allowed and these things aren't.

00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:45.123
And so when you ask them the question who should get to decide that and why, and what should it be, you turn around and they don't have an answer.

00:15:45.123 --> 00:15:49.744
I don't know.

00:15:49.744 --> 00:15:52.648
And then you can go well, ok, you know, it makes sense.

00:15:52.648 --> 00:15:53.850
Here's why it makes sense for it to be the Ten Commandments.

00:15:53.850 --> 00:15:55.673
This country was founded as a Protestant Christian nation.

00:15:55.813 --> 00:15:58.578
I think the Ten Commandments are on the Supreme Court, right On the building.

00:16:00.768 --> 00:16:15.583
And then, well, that violates the First Amendment, right, Freedom of assembly and you go, well, okay, let's talk about that, and you can, depending on how many lunches they want to have, how many coffees they want to have, how much they really.

00:16:15.583 --> 00:16:17.268
It could be a really fruitful conversation.

00:16:17.268 --> 00:16:21.788
Or it could be like, yeah, man, that's crazy, and you just move on because you're not going to get anywhere with them.

00:16:21.788 --> 00:16:25.168
Um, but if someone really wants to go down that road, you can go.

00:16:25.168 --> 00:16:27.034
Well, man, from the beginning.

00:16:27.034 --> 00:16:33.349
Uh, talk about Noah Webster and how he wanted every kid to learn to read the Bible and how public schools need to teach the Bible.

00:16:33.469 --> 00:16:42.220
Back at you know, the founding of the country, how freedom of religion originally did not mean you can worship any God you want.

00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:48.197
It meant you can worship the Christian God as a Baptist or a Presbyterian or you know.

00:16:48.197 --> 00:16:55.385
You can according to your conscience, without the government interfering in your worship of the Christian God.

00:16:55.385 --> 00:16:57.669
Freedom of religion was a Christian doctrine.

00:16:57.669 --> 00:17:04.107
Christian liberty came out of the Protestant Reformation Separation of church and state.

00:17:04.107 --> 00:17:08.035
That idea was to prevent government overreach.

00:17:08.035 --> 00:17:27.750
None of this stuff was meant to try to keep Christianity out of institutions, out of politics, out of the public square and so if you want to go into some American history and church history but a lot of people don't want to really go into all that, they're just mad and they want to vent and sometimes maybe the best thing you can do is go.

00:17:27.750 --> 00:17:29.557
I'm sorry that sounds frustrating.

00:17:30.402 --> 00:17:31.465
And then share the gospel with them.

00:17:32.126 --> 00:17:43.017
So Andy Stanley criticized this law by saying what should be on the walls is this treat others the way you would want to be treated, jesus.

00:17:43.057 --> 00:17:43.337
Christ.

00:17:43.337 --> 00:17:50.713
That was on a big banner in my elementary school when I was in like first grade.

00:17:50.713 --> 00:17:52.597
Yeah, the golden rule, golden rule.

00:17:52.917 --> 00:18:11.015
That's what he advocated instead of the Ten Commandments, because the Ten Commandments advocates law, whereas I guess this is still a law, right, I'm not sure where what is, but he wanted Jesus' name on there, and he wanted the golden rule, which I before that too, I haven't either one would be I'd be excited about.

00:18:11.015 --> 00:18:12.711
Yeah, I say put it all up there.

00:18:12.711 --> 00:18:14.858
Yeah, yeah, I say put it all up there, yeah.

00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:16.279
So what do you think?

00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:26.443
But when you hear that criticism of him saying like, don't reflect a Jewish perspective, you should reflect a Christian perspective, if this nation is a Christian nation.

00:18:26.443 --> 00:18:28.244
What do you mean a Jewish perspective?

00:18:28.244 --> 00:18:40.233
So like, obviously that's Christian right, but the Jews, if you're Jewish, you would say that's the ten commandments as specific to jewish context, and christians are free from that law as we're forgiven by it.

00:18:40.233 --> 00:18:42.829
I don't know, that's what I think his, that's where he's going with.

00:18:42.829 --> 00:18:44.799
Why go and escalate or elevate?

00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:45.785
So we're not as opposed?

00:18:45.805 --> 00:18:45.986
to new.

00:18:45.986 --> 00:18:58.290
I see, I see, okay, so to me, yeah, I think andy stanley has some major theological problems we've talked about this in that he wants to he said explicitly detach unhitch from the Old Testament.

00:18:58.290 --> 00:19:14.596
And he, you know, there's some major problems because as Christians, we are set free from the law in terms of, um, uh, the old, we're not under the old covenant, right, we're not under law in terms of we achieve salvation by obeying God's law.

00:19:14.596 --> 00:19:17.753
Rather, we receive salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

00:19:17.753 --> 00:19:20.492
But God's moral law is still binding on us.

00:19:20.492 --> 00:19:20.994
It's still binding.

00:19:21.326 --> 00:19:41.494
And you see that in the New Testament, when we're commanded to worship God, paul in Romans says he brings up the second table, so that the two tables of the Ten Commandments, the first four commandments, summarized by how you love God, the second six, the next six commandments on how you love your neighbor, right, two tables of law, second table of law, paul.

00:19:41.494 --> 00:19:47.276
Paul repeats those things in the book of Romans, saying, um, that by loving your neighbor you fulfill the law.

00:19:47.276 --> 00:19:52.635
Um, and you know he, he says, yeah, you shouldn't murder, you shouldn't commit adultery.

00:19:52.635 --> 00:19:54.748
So the moral law is still binding on us.

00:19:54.748 --> 00:19:55.931
That's a perpetual law.

00:19:55.931 --> 00:20:01.773
We're not saved by obedience to it, but we're still called to walk in it and obey it yeah, one of the things I always like to say is Christian.

00:20:01.994 --> 00:20:15.817
Yeah, jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law so that he is able to forgive the moral law how we've broken it, how we've broken it, and then we're allowing us to live under any civil law, displaying the kingdom of God wherever we're at.

00:20:16.707 --> 00:20:30.854
So we're not free as Christians to like, oh sweet, I'm free, now I can go murder people and commit adultery and covet, and nobody would say that, right, yeah, we're free from the penalty of that because of Jesus and we're freed from sin.

00:20:30.854 --> 00:20:32.910
We're not slaves to sin.

00:20:32.910 --> 00:20:35.251
We're free to obey the moral law.

00:20:35.251 --> 00:20:41.116
We are set free by the power of the Holy Spirit to actually walk in obedience to the law, by loving God and loving our neighbors.

00:20:41.116 --> 00:20:43.307
Um so yeah.

00:20:43.307 --> 00:20:45.352
With that, I'd say the 10 commandments are Christian.

00:20:45.352 --> 00:20:57.015
Um and uh, they're good, they're God's moral law and it's, it should be, the shared moral framework that we have for a, a good institution, a good classroom, a good society.

00:20:57.015 --> 00:21:00.430
There's got to be some moral framework.

00:21:00.430 --> 00:21:01.292
Which one should we pick?

00:21:01.292 --> 00:21:03.166
I think the one that God came up with.

00:21:03.448 --> 00:21:04.550
Nice Sure, I agree.

00:21:04.550 --> 00:21:05.734
Any other thoughts on that there, john?

00:21:05.884 --> 00:21:14.952
Yeah, it's really good to start at the Ten Commandments too, because this is the beginning of something that could build to something greater, right?

00:21:14.952 --> 00:21:17.337
Uh, but it it's.

00:21:17.337 --> 00:21:20.170
It's really hard to look at those ten commandments and go I don't like that one.

00:21:20.170 --> 00:21:28.732
I can't, unless I'm outing myself as someone who loves anarchy and you shouldn't elect me.

00:21:28.732 --> 00:21:31.768
If I do, then I should be on board with that list.

00:21:31.768 --> 00:21:34.036
Yeah, right, and that's a good check.

00:21:34.036 --> 00:21:35.781
Like forget the christianity part, forget.

00:21:35.781 --> 00:21:41.339
Just look at the paper and then say I mean, I like what it says.

00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:42.364
It's not like where it comes from.

00:21:42.364 --> 00:21:50.009
Well, just just just like what it says first, and then we can talk about the rest of it and how it applies and also won't get tricked.

00:21:50.290 --> 00:21:51.294
Yeah, on that note.

00:21:51.294 --> 00:21:56.410
Um, so that doesn't mean, hey, we're gonna force everyone in this classroom to be a christ.

00:21:56.410 --> 00:21:57.192
You can't do that.

00:21:57.192 --> 00:21:59.727
You can't force faith.

00:21:59.727 --> 00:22:05.692
What you can do is say we're going to look to this standard for our morals and if you're an atheist, you're a Muslim.

00:22:05.692 --> 00:22:11.896
Just expect like that.

00:22:11.896 --> 00:22:17.497
This is the standard that we're going to conduct ourselves by in this classroom and you need to be mindful and respectful of that.

00:22:17.710 --> 00:22:21.141
Nice, okay, so let's move on from that to this next question.

00:22:21.141 --> 00:22:26.539
This question asker sent in this video of Ray Comfort.

00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:30.829
Let's give it a watch, all right, that was a great video.

00:22:30.829 --> 00:22:38.493
Now, what I want to talk about, though, the question says what are your guys' thoughts on the church?

00:22:38.493 --> 00:22:40.556
Does the church have false converts?

00:22:40.556 --> 00:22:53.607
So, ray brought up like, the problem with the church today is a lot of people ask Jesus into their heart, but those aren't real salvations, and what you need to do is you need to ask people to repent.

00:22:53.607 --> 00:22:58.836
So when you think about that after watching that video, john, what's your take on that?

00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.412
My take is going to start with my personal experience.

00:23:02.412 --> 00:23:17.904
First, when I got baptized here, I definitely knew that I needed it, but I couldn't articulate why and I was still a slave to sin in some respects, okay, but it made the church completely irresistible to me.

00:23:17.904 --> 00:23:25.482
It made God's people like, oh man, not only do they want to like talk theology, they're on board with this forgiveness stuff.

00:23:25.522 --> 00:23:26.285
Okay, so hold on, let's talk.

00:23:26.285 --> 00:23:30.000
So what did you receive Jesus into your heart?

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.316
How did you become a Christian?

00:23:34.849 --> 00:23:36.272
It was late one night and I was in bed talking to Jesus going.

00:23:36.272 --> 00:23:37.596
Look God, I don't know how this works.

00:23:37.596 --> 00:23:39.560
I guess I surrender you.

00:23:39.560 --> 00:23:43.556
I'm waiting to see what you're going to do with me, but I'm only leaving the door open a crack.

00:23:43.556 --> 00:23:46.582
Let's do this.

00:23:46.582 --> 00:23:53.038
And then, because I don't like being theatrical or being like a tension guy, I said I'm not going to tell anybody.

00:23:53.038 --> 00:23:54.141
They have to ask me directly.

00:23:54.141 --> 00:24:01.773
And of course you are invasive and you asked me at the man group hey, so have you accepted Jesus yet?

00:24:01.773 --> 00:24:02.255
And I said yeah.

00:24:02.275 --> 00:24:04.940
And you went so yeah, that happened.

00:24:05.622 --> 00:24:06.262
Okay, that's good.

00:24:06.262 --> 00:24:13.711
So so this is where I don't know and maybe this is maybe my critique of Ray Comfort is he's old Meaning.

00:24:13.711 --> 00:24:20.076
I don't know if people are saying you need to accept Jesus in your heart anymore, because I think he was criticizing Bill Bright's.

00:24:20.076 --> 00:24:25.615
God has a wonderful plan for your life, you know, you just need to check it out, and maybe that is.

00:24:26.374 --> 00:24:27.390
It's alive and well today.

00:24:27.830 --> 00:25:15.480
I just I would say, like in every year when we go on family vacation in the summer, uh, we visit a church wherever we are, you know and so every year for the this is um going on 13 years now since, uh, jenny and I got married, um that we have visited a different church in a different town, wherever we're staying, and man, uh, maybe one or two of these churches we came back from was like that was awesome and the rest is we we have visited so many that we've been like now that was a watered down, easy believe um either the borderline, heretical, or just so like seeker, sensitive, where, hey, just you know, um, just come back and we've got a great kids ministry and we've got a gift for you and just you know it's okay, jesus loves you just like you are and you know that's great.

00:25:15.580 --> 00:25:17.523
Kids ministry is great, visitor gifts are great.

00:25:17.523 --> 00:25:18.424
Jesus does love you.

00:25:18.424 --> 00:25:20.396
But it kind of stopped there.

00:25:20.396 --> 00:25:30.778
I cannot tell you if one of the maybe, like I said, one or two of those churches actually said you need to repent from your sin and put your faith in Jesus Christ.

00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:35.051
That was just Okay, faith in Jesus Christ.

00:25:35.071 --> 00:25:37.480
That was just okay, maybe I'm just you know what happens is you get stuck in your own world.

00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:42.095
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and so you don't see that there's other means I think there's a lot of it still going on out there.

00:25:42.095 --> 00:25:44.701
I so one thought I had one.

00:25:44.701 --> 00:25:46.612
Where does the like accept Jesus in your heart?

00:25:46.612 --> 00:25:47.472
Stuff come from?

00:25:47.472 --> 00:25:47.673
Like?

00:25:47.673 --> 00:25:48.775
Is that even in the Bible?

00:25:48.775 --> 00:25:56.375
Um, I think of John, chapter one, where it says says to all who did receive him, so Jesus came to his own.

00:25:56.375 --> 00:26:02.460
His own people did not receive him, but to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:03.953
So there's receiving Jesus.

00:26:03.953 --> 00:26:06.199
Then you got Romans 10, 9.

00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:07.301
Yeah, 10, 9.

00:26:07.301 --> 00:26:13.315
Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you'll be saved.

00:26:13.315 --> 00:26:16.758
So there's a receiving of Jesus, there's a believing in your heart.

00:26:16.758 --> 00:26:24.884
So I'm like I don't think that language is horrible, but I also think you do need to call people to repent A hundred percent.

00:26:24.903 --> 00:26:28.186
What about Revelation 3.20, which is not an evangelism verse, but it can be used as one?

00:26:28.186 --> 00:26:34.962
I stand at the door and knock, and if anyone would open the door for me, he will look, I will come in and sup with him or eat with him.

00:26:34.962 --> 00:26:37.357
And I think he's talking about door of your heart, right?

00:26:37.357 --> 00:26:39.136
I mean, he's not literally saying we're gonna have dinner together.

00:26:39.136 --> 00:26:43.019
So there is some spiritual connection of let me in, yeah.

00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:46.059
And so I don't think the verbiage is wrong.

00:26:46.829 --> 00:26:51.895
However, by itself, if you don't ever bring in repentance, I would say he's got a point.

00:26:52.016 --> 00:26:58.182
Yeah, this is where maybe I'm just the part the problem I have.

00:26:58.182 --> 00:27:00.986
I love I use his technique of like bring up the law.

00:27:00.986 --> 00:27:03.276
Yeah, I love bring up the law and say have you broken the law?

00:27:03.276 --> 00:27:04.339
Well, you're a sinner.

00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:06.518
If you've lied once, you're a liar.

00:27:06.518 --> 00:27:09.298
If you've hated, jesus says you've committed murder.

00:27:09.298 --> 00:27:11.034
If you've lusted, you're an adulterer.

00:27:11.034 --> 00:27:14.300
I love going that route when it comes to evangelism because it makes it clear.

00:27:14.300 --> 00:27:29.430
However, I don't want to start putting any doubts in people's salvation that they aren't really saved because they accepted Jesus in their heart.

00:27:31.829 --> 00:27:32.590
I think, JD Greer had a book called.

00:27:32.611 --> 00:27:34.094
Stop Accepting Jesus Into your Heart, or something like that.

00:27:34.094 --> 00:27:37.640
I was like I think you go too far Jesus into your heart, or something like that.

00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:37.961
And I was like.

00:27:37.961 --> 00:27:39.703
I was like I think you go too far, like I think you want to.

00:27:39.703 --> 00:27:40.525
You're so wanting to make a point.

00:27:40.525 --> 00:27:40.865
It's about the.

00:27:40.865 --> 00:27:43.430
You know, the gospel isn't accepting Jesus in your heart.

00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:51.328
It's about the death, burial, resurrection of Christ and him saying repent, for the kingdom of God is near and you believing in what he did for you to forgive you of your sin.

00:27:51.348 --> 00:27:58.270
Yeah, so in.

00:27:58.270 --> 00:28:00.520
In some ways, I think it's confusing to kind of challenge people like you're not a real Christian.

00:28:00.520 --> 00:28:02.390
In other ways, I think it's necessary to have someone say hey, check your heart.

00:28:02.390 --> 00:28:04.095
Sounds like an old school term.

00:28:04.095 --> 00:28:12.044
Check your heart to see if you really and truly are saved, that you believe that you're a sinner, that Jesus' death on the cross for your sins.

00:28:12.044 --> 00:28:14.276
There was a great exchange.

00:28:14.276 --> 00:28:19.538
He took your sins and he gave you new life and he calls you to live a new life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

00:28:20.280 --> 00:28:25.622
Whenever I lead someone to Christ, I usually like to say in the sinner's prayer I love the sinner's prayer.

00:28:25.622 --> 00:28:36.307
I'm not thumbs down on the sinner's prayer, but I ask the Holy Spirit to come into their heart and make them the person that they're supposed to be and, by believing that Jesus died for their sins, rose from the dead.

00:28:36.307 --> 00:28:39.479
Now the Holy Spirit comes in and challenges them to live a new way.

00:28:39.479 --> 00:28:52.700
I don't know, Maybe I'm in semantic world, but I feel like and maybe Ray is just making a point that we need to really challenge people to Jesus' lordship.

00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:55.636
That's not what saves you, but that's what you're called to.

00:28:55.636 --> 00:28:56.779
Does that make sense?

00:28:56.779 --> 00:28:57.950
I don't know, Sure.

00:28:57.970 --> 00:29:03.242
Yeah, I just think, I think to answer the question are there false converts in the church?

00:29:03.242 --> 00:29:04.776
Yeah there always has been.

00:29:04.817 --> 00:29:07.891
And I think that's biblical the wheat and the tare is going to grow together.

00:29:08.010 --> 00:29:09.232
Oh, yeah, and you don't.

00:29:09.232 --> 00:29:11.116
Only God knows someone's heart.

00:29:11.116 --> 00:29:15.992
All we can judge is someone's confession of faith and the fruit that we see in their life.

00:29:15.992 --> 00:29:24.096
Um and so when we do membership interviews, you know, like we don't have some device that can you know, see if someone is a?

00:29:24.156 --> 00:29:37.142
real Christian um but when the fruit of someone's life is that they are not repenting from sin but they're calling themselves a Christian and you have a responsibility to call that out and every church is going to deal with that.

00:29:37.142 --> 00:29:42.583
There's lots of warnings about that in the scripture.

00:29:42.583 --> 00:29:55.789
But I think kind of his point is you can open the door for a flood of false converts by a certain way of preaching which is never calling people to actually repent.

00:29:55.871 --> 00:30:13.450
So then you have a bunch of people that love Christianity and you have whole churches and movements and denominations that go apostate Right, Because it was never about repenting from your sin, it was just about Jesus loves me and he loves me just as I am and therefore I don't need to change anything about my life.

00:30:13.450 --> 00:30:14.515
It's the comfort without the cross.

00:30:14.515 --> 00:30:16.674
Because I do think Jesus does say come to me.

00:30:16.674 --> 00:30:18.421
All you are weary and heavy laden, I will give you rest.

00:30:18.421 --> 00:30:22.279
But then he also says if anyone would come after me, he must deny himself.

00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:23.281
Take up his cross and follow me.

00:30:23.281 --> 00:30:23.730
And you're like?

00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:24.892
Which one is it?

00:30:24.951 --> 00:30:30.881
Oh, it's both yeah, exactly, Come to me and let's go.

00:30:30.881 --> 00:30:34.605
Yeah, and I'll give you rest, and you know it's going to cost you everything.

00:30:34.605 --> 00:30:36.173
And those are both true.

00:30:36.374 --> 00:30:37.095
All right, here we go.

00:30:37.095 --> 00:30:37.757
Next question.

00:30:37.757 --> 00:30:42.537
Good morning, I'm a born-again Christian and I have a question.

00:30:42.537 --> 00:30:46.375
In the Bible, revelation 21, verses, 1 through 4.

00:30:46.609 --> 00:30:47.796
I need someone to go look that up.

00:30:47.796 --> 00:30:53.115
It is stated that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

00:30:53.115 --> 00:30:59.045
My question is will there be a new physical heaven and earth?

00:30:59.045 --> 00:31:05.880
Or, because I'm a believer of Jesus Christ and have the Holy Spirit in me, the earth around me is new to me, since I have the Holy Spirit.

00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:13.901
I'm a 28-year-old woman doing Bible study with my 52-year-old mom and we have different views on the scripture, so we need clarification.

00:31:15.651 --> 00:31:17.897
That's so sweet doing Bible study with your mom.

00:31:17.897 --> 00:31:18.881
I love that.

00:31:19.069 --> 00:31:19.571
I love that too.

00:31:19.571 --> 00:31:19.992
That's great.

00:31:19.992 --> 00:31:20.695
I'm pretty.

00:31:20.695 --> 00:31:28.115
First of all way to go 28 year old person having doing Bible study with your 52 year old mom First off way to go.

00:31:28.115 --> 00:31:29.820
But your first thought on that Holland.

00:31:30.890 --> 00:31:35.541
Yes, it is an actual new creation.

00:31:36.611 --> 00:31:39.760
It's not a symbolic interpretation of Revelation.

00:31:42.011 --> 00:31:44.058
Are we going to sneak in some other conversations here?

00:31:46.611 --> 00:32:20.878
Yes, I believe that Revelation has literal and symbolic aspects to it aspects to it, and there is a promise of a new creation in that, in the same way that Jesus, in a similar way that Jesus had a resurrected, glorified body, we have this promise that we too will be resurrected and glorified, and that the whole earth Romans 8 speaks about this as well the earth groaning awaiting the return of Jesus, where he makes everything new.

00:32:20.878 --> 00:32:27.117
And so, yes, I believe that that's referring to an actual renewed creation.

00:32:27.659 --> 00:32:28.140
I agree with that.

00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:38.676
So I think what gets confusing and this depends on your eschatological view I think that there is a millennial kingdom and then there is the new heaven and new earth.

00:32:38.676 --> 00:32:48.482
So the millennial kingdom is the kingdom of God, where Jesus is enthroned for a thousand years, which, holland, I think you take that as figurative.

00:32:49.431 --> 00:32:50.453
No, okay.

00:32:50.453 --> 00:32:51.415
So it's a thousand years.

00:32:51.415 --> 00:32:54.554
He's on his throne right now in heaven, reigning over all things, right.

00:32:54.554 --> 00:32:55.135
So that's not thousand years.

00:32:55.135 --> 00:32:56.864
He's on his throne right now in heaven, reigning over all things, right.

00:32:56.884 --> 00:32:57.626
That's not figurative, that's literal.

00:32:57.626 --> 00:32:58.190
All right, okay, I take it.

00:32:58.190 --> 00:33:06.003
My literal view is that there will be a time, the rapture, when the Christians are taken away, and that's kind of the left behind series.

00:33:06.003 --> 00:33:09.140
And then there are the seven-year period of tribulation.

00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:10.851
First three and a half years are pretty great.

00:33:10.851 --> 00:33:11.832
The last three and a half years are pretty great.

00:33:11.832 --> 00:33:18.617
The last three and a half years are just awful and torturous for all of humanity, which Christians will have to experience, except for the new believers who become believers during the tribulation.

00:33:18.617 --> 00:33:27.767
But then, when Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation, he'll start his thousand year reign, whereas Holland calls that thousand year reign right now, where Jesus is on the throne right now.

00:33:32.171 --> 00:33:39.337
And we disagree on that eschatological preference Three millenn remillennial for you, amillennial for me, right tertiary issue in the church, it's okay we disagree.

00:33:39.337 --> 00:33:41.782
Chris gets to have the official idea.

00:33:41.782 --> 00:33:43.773
I get the official position because I it's.

00:33:44.095 --> 00:33:45.317
Yeah, I love that anyway.

00:33:45.317 --> 00:33:57.125
So, but but the reality is we both believe that eventually, after the millennial kingdom, a new heaven and new earth will come down, or a new heaven and a new earth.

00:33:57.430 --> 00:34:00.420
A new Jerusalem comes down from heaven is what it says.

00:34:01.089 --> 00:34:16.742
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more, and I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, and so I would take that as an actual new thing, a new heaven, new earth.

00:34:16.742 --> 00:34:34.574
But I can see, if you are going from a millennial kingdom perspective, that it's going to be this earth and heaven on earth, so to speak, because Jesus is ruling here, that would be yes, and then yes later, but you would take it too.

00:34:34.614 --> 00:34:39.735
Is that actual new city kind of comes down and we all dwell in it together with Jesus?

00:34:40.237 --> 00:35:21.416
Yeah, so where we both agree is that at the return of Jesus at some point we might disagree on the exact timeline, but where we would both agree, where pretty much all Christians have agreed, is that eventually Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead, and then the first heaven and earth will pass away and there will be a new heaven and earth where we live forever with God in his presence, with glorified bodies, where there will be no more sin, all the brokenness of creation will be healed, everything will be made new.

00:35:21.416 --> 00:35:27.030
And that's the great hope that we have and there's total agreement there A hundred percent, yeah, and it's a physical.

00:35:27.070 --> 00:35:37.240
This is why I love about at the very beginning podcast talking about the physical and spiritual manifesting in in moments, whereas there you have the physical and spiritual realized together.

00:35:37.240 --> 00:35:39.710
It's completely spiritual, but it's also completely physical.

00:35:39.710 --> 00:35:41.335
You will have an actual body.

00:35:41.635 --> 00:35:42.577
Yeah, so a lot, you know.

00:35:42.577 --> 00:35:59.951
Sometimes you get the idea that just like the end of Christianity is being a spirit in heaven, you know kind of popularized by movies or TV shows, paintings over the years and stuff like that, where you see people just kind of floating in heaven playing harps and stuff like that.

00:35:59.951 --> 00:36:05.150
But the promise, the real, true hope of Christianity is not being a spirit in heaven forever.

00:36:05.150 --> 00:36:11.172